Cyclogyro Reinvented

DeltaV · Post by **DeltaV** » Sat Aug 04, 2012 6:02 pm

Ah, it's a secret patent.

http://www.unmanned.co.uk/unmanned-vehi ... buildings/

Each of the rotor assemblies comprises a set of disks connected by several blades with adjustable angles — forming a structure that looks like a barrel with most of its slats missing.

These rotate at 2,200rpm and can be individually adjusted by a computer system to provide thrust in any direction.

‘The big engineering test is how the hell do you hinge theses blades if they’re going at 220rpm?’ said Brigadier David Wills, IAT21’s vice-president for defence and leader of the D-Dalus project.

‘We had to find a friction-free bearing and that’s the secret patent at the heart of this. It’s fairly small and it’s mechanical — it’s not got any great magnetic tricks or liquid nitrogen or anything. It’s just three moving parts really.’

GIThruster · Post by **GIThruster** » Sat Aug 04, 2012 6:34 pm

"Secret Patent"? How can it be a secret if it's patented?

Skipjack · Post by **Skipjack** » Sat Aug 04, 2012 8:37 pm

"Secret Patent"? How can it be a secret if it's patented?

Sounds like BS to me. Maybe there is something like this for special defense systems developed and paid for by the DOD, but otherwise, I have never heard of such a thing.
If it is just pending and not approved yet, then maybe it is just secret until the patent is through and whoever wrote this missunderstood it.

GIThruster · Post by **GIThruster** » Sat Aug 04, 2012 9:04 pm

Skipjack wrote:
"Secret Patent"? How can it be a secret if it's patented?
Sounds like BS to me. Maybe there is something like this for special defense systems developed and paid for by the DOD, but otherwise, I have never heard of such a thing.
If it is just pending and not approved yet, then maybe it is just secret until the patent is through and whoever wrote this missunderstood it.

When DOD classifies a technology for private use any patents pending or previously granted are denied and revoked and their paper trail at USPO is erased. US federal law requires DOD pay the invention owner market value compensation but this never happens. If one wants to argue that they weren't paid enough they spend years in court with little or no expectation of real compensation.

OTOH, many fields know this will happen in advance and plan on it, such as metallurgy. Most metallurgists don't even file for patent when they find something DOD can use. They just contact DOD.

Skipjack · Post by **Skipjack** » Sat Aug 04, 2012 9:21 pm

US federal law requires DOD pay the invention owner market value compensation but this never happens. If one wants to argue that they weren't paid enough they spend years in court with little or no expectation of real compensation.

In which case I would probably open source it, just out of pure defiance. I cant stand being pushed arround, especially not by the government, any government.

GIThruster · Post by **GIThruster** » Sat Aug 04, 2012 9:24 pm

If you develop something like a new metal, and DOD purchases it, you'll be paid a few million dollars. If you open source it, you'll be paid nothing.

It's easy to say you would walk away from millions of dollars, but this seems pretty unlikely to me.

Skipjack · Post by **Skipjack** » Sat Aug 04, 2012 9:27 pm

If you develop something like a new metal, and DOD purchases it, you'll be paid a few million dollars. If you open source it, you'll be paid nothing.

It's easy to say you would walk away from millions of dollars, but this seems pretty unlikely to me.

If it is below market value, then they are basically ripping you off, which IMHO equals to stealing from me. I dont like people stealing from me. It is a matter of principle. I would rather give it away for free then. At least that way my name would be in lights and that can result in monetary rewards too. Maybe write a book about how the government tried to ripp me off. They sell particularly well in the US, especially among conservatives and libertarians

GIThruster · Post by **GIThruster** » Sat Aug 04, 2012 10:30 pm

You don't understand. If a federal judge has assigned the technology as "classified" you certainly are not going to write a book about it. Doing that will land you in prison for the rest of your life under high treason, and you would never find a credible publisher.

I agree it is a blow to what we consider "fair play" for governments to be able to take IP's in the name of national security, but if you consider the consequences you'll soon see why this is necessary. It is not necessary that USG rip off the IP owner by paying them less than what the IP would ultimately be worth on the market, but at the time of such compensation, all net worth is entirely subjective. There is no way to find out what an IP is worth until someone is willing to pay for it, and no one will be so willing because the IP is secret.

You can see where the dread cycle comes from. . .

Tom Ligon · Post by **Tom Ligon** » Sat Aug 04, 2012 10:43 pm

The craft I worked with is Aurora Flight Science's Excalibur. Ducted fans for attitude control but most of the vertical lift provided by a central tiltable turbojet engine. VTOL that transitions to fairly conventional horizontal flight. Fanwing is much simpler ... I kinda like it.

Skipjack · Post by **Skipjack** » Sat Aug 04, 2012 11:25 pm

Doing that will land you in prison for the rest of your life under high treason

Doubtable.

It is not necessary that USG rip off the IP owner by paying them less than what the IP would ultimately be worth on the market, but at the time of such compensation, all net worth is entirely subjective.

In such case the value should be higher. After the all the US government wants it so bad that they want to classify it. That allone means that it is worth a lot and probably even more than it would achieve on the free market (due to the fact that it will be available to only one client, exclusivity is expensive).

paperburn1 · Post by **paperburn1** » Sun Aug 05, 2012 1:31 am

Skipjack wrote:
Doing that will land you in prison for the rest of your life under high treason

There is no such thing as high treason in the USA, we dont have a king
The last person charged with treason was Adam Yahiye Gadahn in 2006. Before him, no one had been charged with treason against the United States since 1952.

GIThruster · Post by **GIThruster** » Sun Aug 05, 2012 2:09 am

I'm sure you thought you had a point but you don't. Anything considered treason today was called high treason in the past, in order to distinguish it from petty treason which we would no longer call that. All treason is high treason--got nothing to do with the presence of a king.

However, violations of the Invention Secrecy Act and specifically of a secrecy order, are not generally considered treason. One who willfully violates the secrecy order will likely have his patent application held abandoned, lose his right to compensation, be barred from receiving a patent and may be subject to a substantial fine and up to two years in prison.

http://www.uakron.edu/dotAsset/1138093.pdf

You'll find in this document how the whole issue of seeking compensation works, but in general, one of the agencies involved enters into negotiations with the inventor, and whoever in that agency is doing the negotiation comes up with a figure from the air, of what they think the invention is worth. If the inventor agrees, he receives 75% of that value. If he doesn't agree he is lost in a legal morass for years trying to get before a judge and get paid. There are NO STATUTORY GUIDELINES concerning how to calculate compensation, so it's generally understood an invention that has had USG's greedy mitts clamped on it, is never going to be paid for at full market value. This has been true since the Invention Secrecy Act was made law in 1951.

This is just one more reason that inventors don't get rich on their inventions. This is exceedingly rare.

Skipjack · Post by **Skipjack** » Sun Aug 05, 2012 2:52 am

Patents suck anyway. You dont need them anymore. Just claim a copyright violation. You can do that on everything. It is much less regulated and is valid even 90 years after your death. Patents are valid at most 20 years and you have to pay for them (and the patent atorney, etc). "Luckily" copyright law has grown into this monster supported by corrupt judges and even more corrupt politicians that let themselves get lobbied by some corporations.
If you are worried about the damage patent trolls can do, then watch out! Copyright trolls are already doing more damage than that.

djolds1 · Post by **djolds1** » Sun Aug 05, 2012 6:09 am

GIThruster wrote:"Secret Patent"? How can it be a secret if it's patented?

There are national security exceptions, but I don't see how those apply to THIS.

djolds1 · Post by **djolds1** » Sun Aug 05, 2012 6:13 am

GIThruster wrote:If you develop something like a new metal, and DOD purchases it, you'll be paid a few million dollars. If you open source it, you'll be paid nothing.

It's easy to say you would walk away from millions of dollars, but this seems pretty unlikely to me.

File with WIPO, not USPTO?