Another Libertarian theory fails in experimental reality.

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GIThruster
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Re: Another Libertarian theory fails in experimental reality

Post by GIThruster »

Skipjack wrote: Again it does not solve the basic problem of killing innocent people.
We get that. It's a problem. We should assume at least one innocent person would die each decade as a result of this policy.

How many die from car crashes?

Seriously, you're using rhetoric instead of thinking about the issue. No one wants to say there is an acceptable level of human life lost for any reason, but we do allow cars on the road, so obviously there is an acceptable level of loss. Those innocents who perish from the death penalty are by any estimation very few in number.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

Teahive
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Re: Another Libertarian theory fails in experimental reality

Post by Teahive »

In a surprise turn back to the original topic...

... there are a number of questionable statements in the linked article.
Abuse suffered by the women is now called an ‘occupational hazard’, like a stone dropped on a builder’s toe.
BS. Who exactly is supposed to believe this?
But only 5 per cent of the women registered for tax, because no one wants to be known as a whore — however legal it may be.
And it couldn't have anything to do with not wanting to pay tax?
Illegality has simply taken a new form, with an increase in trafficking, unlicensed brothels and pimping; with policing completely out of the picture, it was easier to break the laws that remained.
Wait, what? There are clear indications of crimes being committed, but policing is "completely out of the picture"? If that's true, how the frick is this anything but a failure of police to do their job?

GIThruster
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Re: Another Libertarian theory fails in experimental reality

Post by GIThruster »

Those are noteworthy quibbles, but are you doubting the conclusion of the piece, that this has been a complete failure? It seems to me there are dozens of reasons here to draw that conclusion and in fact, the Dutch are just about there--or so the topic says. Do you doubt this?
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

Stubby
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Re: Another Libertarian theory fails in experimental reality

Post by Stubby »

GIThruster wrote:
Skipjack wrote: Again it does not solve the basic problem of killing innocent people.
We get that. It's a problem. We should assume at least one innocent person would die each decade as a result of this policy.

How many die from car crashes?

Seriously, you're using rhetoric instead of thinking about the issue. No one wants to say there is an acceptable level of human life lost for any reason, but we do allow cars on the road, so obviously there is an acceptable level of loss. Those innocents who perish from the death penalty are by any estimation very few in number.
How many car crashes are government mandated?
Illinois dropped the death penalty because 1 in 7 inmates on death row were released when new evidence exonerated them.

There are around 3000 death row inmates and if the what Illinois found holds to be true then around 200 innocent people will die.
And in case you missed it, one of the researchers who did the Emory studies on deterrence [PRO C.P.], found that a deterrence effect only happens in 6 states. There is no effect in 8 states and there are increased murders in 13 states. The Emory studies looked a the entire country. The Emory researcher went back an analyzed the data state by state and found that the criminologists were also right.

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GIThruster
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Re: Another Libertarian theory fails in experimental reality

Post by GIThruster »

Stubby wrote:. . .one of the researchers who did the Emory studies on deterrence [PRO C.P.], found that. . .
See this is why we can't have an adult conversation, Stubby. It doesn't matter how many times you have explained to you how statistical analysis works, what is the difference between cause and correlation, what are plausible readings of the data and what are not. . .you are simply going to take whomever agrees with your position and pretend that is an authority. You're certainly not going to learn anything from this discussion.

The National Academies study you quoted from the start was specific that they disagree with the interpretation of the data and the findings of these three studies. From the first moments of reading that, I have steered away from any arguments about statistical analysis because you HAVE TO BE A MORON to argue with a National Academies study in a field you have no expertise in. So enough with the statistics.

Do you understand who the National Academies are composed of and the weight they bring to the issue? All by themselves, they have invalidated the work of many dozens of studies done over decades, and you want to argue that one person in one study says one thing. Makes you sound like a moron, stubby.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

Skipjack
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Re: Another Libertarian theory fails in experimental reality

Post by Skipjack »

GIThruster wrote:
Stubby wrote:. . .one of the researchers who did the Emory studies on deterrence [PRO C.P.], found that. . .
.you are simply going to take whomever agrees with your position and pretend that is an authority. You're certainly not going to learn anything from this discussion.
So are you, quite obviously...

GIThruster
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Re: Another Libertarian theory fails in experimental reality

Post by GIThruster »

Skipjack wrote:So are you, quite obviously...
No Skippy. I will restate the obvious for the benefit of those cognitively impaired--I stopped looking to statistics when this NA study was referenced because even if we all had the skills of statisticians like sociologists, we would then need to individually invest thousands of hours of study to get at the meat on this issue. The statistics have been very effectively rendered useless by the NA study. So if there's to be discussion, it can't be about statistics and their proper reading.

If I or anyone else jumps in here and spends the time to get at the real issues about this data analysis, it simply won't matter; because this NA study clearly has thrown the entire realm of statistical analysis out the window.

BTW, the NA study did not make the case that the death penalty is not a deterrent to crime. What they actually said was, that those making policy decisions should ignore the statistics because they felt they have been improperly handled.

So, leave the statistics aside. Leave the entire utilitarian/deterrent issue aside if you must. There are still several other kinds of analysis one can make. What is "just" is worth considering apart from utilitarian consequences. When a pair of evil men rape a couple women to death and burn down their home to hide their crime, and there is no doubt about their guilt, there ought to be something inside you past the need for revenge that says these guys deserve to die. Lets get it straight--it's a long time since we had hangings for horse thieves. The death penalty is reserved for the disfavored few. If you want to have a sensible discussion about it, you can't be busy pretending it is common that we execute the innocent. It's not, and our ways of determining guilt get better all the time.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

Skipjack
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Re: Another Libertarian theory fails in experimental reality

Post by Skipjack »

GIThruster wrote:
Skipjack wrote:So are you, quite obviously...
When a pair of evil men rape a couple women to death and burn down their home to hide their crime, and there is no doubt about their guilt, there ought to be something inside you past the need for revenge that says these guys deserve to die. Lets get it straight--it's a long time since we had hangings for horse thieves. The death penalty is reserved for the disfavored few. If you want to have a sensible discussion about it, you can't be busy pretending it is common that we execute the innocent. It's not, and our ways of determining guilt get better all the time.
Well, from what I have seen, errors are made more often than once a decade. It is actually a lot more common. As I mentioned earlier, there are currently efforts underway to - for the first time ever- scientifically evaluate commonly used forensic techniqes. The results of this effort to far put the entire established process into question. That is how it is. I dont like it either. I fully agree with you that these people deserve to die. If there was a way to tell with 100% certainty that someone is a pig and a murderer, I would happily pull the switch to his electric chair myself. But, I am cynical enough to know that humans are lazy, sloppy, corrupt and stupid. All this makes the legal system that depends on humans from the beginning until the end of the process flawed and dangerous.

ladajo
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Re: Another Libertarian theory fails in experimental reality

Post by ladajo »

So the answer is to eliminate the death penality in its entireity. Even when you are sure that the scumbag did it.
That makes total sense.
That is why the law reads "beyond a reasonable doubt". The intent is noble. The system has allowed (encouraged) itself to corrupt what that means.

The guy walks into the market, kills a random person. Then says, "yup I did it. I did it cause I wanted to. I planned it out, and I did it. And I'll do it again. I liked it."

You won't death sentence anyone to protect this guy from what?
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GIThruster
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Re: Another Libertarian theory fails in experimental reality

Post by GIThruster »

Iadajo gets it.

Skippy also gets it to some degree. It is the personal responsibility issue that he's stuck on. So just to remind: in this country, every person accused of a crime is presumed innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. They get a jury of their peers, and sentencing is done by a judge. If the jury and the judge are all convinced beyond a reasonable doubt of a crime heinous enough to warrant execution, the accused will get about 15 years or so time to try to have the verdict overturned, and only after that more than reasonable time, execution can happen given no governor grants a pardon, etc. And yes, now that DNA testing is becoming common, we have an unusually large number of convicted felons being shown to be innocent. What this means is, the new forensic techniques will be applied to all accused, and people whom in the past might have been convicted will not. So the numbers of innocent men and women wrongfully convicted will inevitably go down--way down. There is each day more reason to trust the justice system, though we should always seek to improve it.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

Skipjack
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Re: Another Libertarian theory fails in experimental reality

Post by Skipjack »

ladajo wrote:So the answer is to eliminate the death penality in its entireity. Even when you are sure that the scumbag did it.
That makes total sense.
That is why the law reads "beyond a reasonable doubt". The intent is noble. The system has allowed (encouraged) itself to corrupt what that means.

The guy walks into the market, kills a random person. Then says, "yup I did it. I did it cause I wanted to. I planned it out, and I did it. And I'll do it again. I liked it."

You won't death sentence anyone to protect this guy from what?
False example. Usually those that confess dont get the death penalty. Only those that maintain their innocense do.
GIThruster wrote: Skippy also gets it to some degree. It is the personal responsibility issue that he's stuck on. So just to remind: in this country, every person accused of a crime is presumed innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. They get a jury of their peers, and sentencing is done by a judge. If the jury and the judge are all convinced beyond a reasonable doubt of a crime heinous enough to warrant execution, the accused will get about 15 years or so time to try to have the verdict overturned, and only after that more than reasonable time, execution can happen given no governor grants a pardon, etc. And yes, now that DNA testing is becoming common, we have an unusually large number of convicted felons being shown to be innocent. What this means is, the new forensic techniques will be applied to all accused, and people whom in the past might have been convicted will not. So the numbers of innocent men and women wrongfully convicted will inevitably go down--way down. There is each day more reason to trust the justice system, though we should always seek to improve it.
GIT, thanks for the lecture on how the US system works. I do have a "rudimentary" idea of that.
You say it yourself that so many cases are being overturned now due to new evidence. It makes me shudder at the thought of how many were innocently killed before these new techniques were available. I am sure there are plenty still that wont get overturned because there does not happen to e DNA evidence by some chance, or someone screwing up.
Then there is also the problem that DNA labs have been proven to be make mistakes as well. They too suffer from pressure to get positive results and convictions. The labs that get more positive results get more business and due to the techniques used DNA evidence is also not 100% certain.
Either way, I do understand why people want the death penalty (both my wife and I were for it, she is still at the border right now but like me she is having doubts lately). Once you realize that the system is corrupt, you realize that the death penalty is a dangerous idea.
No, I do not accept the argument of cost.
So you think that prisoners cost you too much money and thus want to execute them? Whats next? Prisoners of war? The US currently has a lot of them and they cost a lot of money. Well then what terminally ill that live on wellfare. Or just the terminally ill. What about drug addicts. The mentally ill? They all cost money too. Do you want to execute them too? Or what about the handicaped? Once you start with that argument there is no stopping. It is a slippery slope to argue for executions because of cost and I would not dare to go there...

GIThruster
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Re: Another Libertarian theory fails in experimental reality

Post by GIThruster »

So you think that prisoners cost you too much money and thus want to execute them?
No. I've never made that argument. I think Dio might have, but I'm more familiar with the facts. It costs more to execute a prisoner than to keep them for life in prison, because of the cost of the appeals process. Efficiency and cost are not reasons to kill anyone.

For me, the biggest reason is, we need to be able to say some crimes cost a person their life. We need to be able to say that for deterrent reasons, and for the sake of justice herself. Civilization requires a social contract, and things like murder are violations of that contract that must entail the most dire of consequences. Would-be murders need to understand, that when they murder someone, their act is an act against all society, and their life is thus forfeit.

You should not presume that every time someone acquainted with an unusually heinous crime responds that the criminal should be executed, that the person is suffering some revenge thing. Retributive justice is not based on revenge. Theories of justice distinguish between retribution and retaliation specifically because since the time of Jesus Christ, most thoughtful people understand revenge is not justice. It's an emotional knee-jerk reaction.

Just to be clear here, the ancient mosaic code that most of Western civilization is based upon, is not based on revenge or retaliation. "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth" was never meant to be revenge. Rather, it was seen as the limits of retribution, using the consequences of an act as the guide for a judge in a court of law, to measure out justice and limit that retribution. I'm not aware of any ancient Jewish judges ordering someone's eye plucked out. That's a modern caricature intended to mislead those unaware of what Moses actually wrote. What he wrote was a guide for judges in a court of law, limiting the sentences of those who had committed crimes, based upon the theory of retribution.

What most people today think of when they hear "an eye for an eye" is what's known as the theory of retaliation or revenge. That is NOT what Moses was all about. When he set up the Jewish courts, he also set up the sanctuary cities where the accused were safe from revenge. He was in fact setting up the basis for setting personal, emotional vendettas aside and making a way for courts of law.

So in general, it is wise to precise this difference between retribution and retaliation. Retaliation/revenge never leads to justice.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

Stubby
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Re: Another Libertarian theory fails in experimental reality

Post by Stubby »

No ladajo doesn't get it at all.

You bring up deterrence again which by necessity brings up statistics. And you just said: "So leave the statistics aside"
In fact almost everything you just said is about deterrence.

So do we leave statistics out or not? We are not going to get anywhere if you assert we must have capital punishment as deterrence and yet not discuss the validity of your assertion.
Everything is bullshit unless proven otherwise. -A.C. Beddoe

Diogenes
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Re: Another Libertarian theory fails in experimental reality

Post by Diogenes »

Skipjack wrote:
Diogenes wrote: I have a simple philosophy. You want something, YOU pay for it.
I don't want to pay $50,000.00 per year for a murderer to stay in prison. I want those people who are opposed to executing him, to pay for it.
When someone is sentenced to life in prison, it is really the Taxpayers who are sentenced to "life in prison."
Again it does not solve the basic problem of killing innocent people.
The solution to THAT problem does not lie with refraining from executing murderers. It lies with requiring a high degree of certainty before applying the death penalty. There are cases in which the evidence is overwhelming and conclusive. You are not helping the plight of innocent men by forbearing in such instances. If anything, you are doing them more harm by letting the guilty hide behind them.

Judicial reform is the answer to the problem of which you are concerned, not a blanket moratorium on the vast majority who are in fact guilty of the crime of murder.

Skipjack wrote: I gather you are for killing innocent people then?

No I am not, but for the purpose of deterrence, innocence or guilt is irrelevant. The State executing people whom the state claims committed the crime of murder, is still sufficient to frighten those who are susceptible, away from committing murder.

In a logical Atheistic society, this non-emotional calculus makes sense.



Skipjack wrote:
I would rather have them in work camps. Those that work get the better food and those that dont work get just basic, cheap stuff to keep them alive, but not happy.

Irrelevant to the point. The cause of prevention is far better served by wide spread and public knowledge of the deaths of individuals who commit murder. Your method will simply fail to discourage murder to the same extent as would execution, therefore it will end up increasing the level of injustice and killing in the world.

An emotional argument from an Atheist. Who would have thought? That you advance such an argument is evidence for my contention that "Atheists" are really people who are steeped in the dominant Judeo-Christian philosophy to such an extent that they don't even realize it colors their judgement.

Skipjack wrote: It used to be like that in Austria before the socialists invented the so called "humane punishment"- nonsense and turned prisons into hotels.
A system which is inconsistent with nature will fail eventually. It can only be propped up by government expenditure for so long.
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Diogenes
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Re: Another Libertarian theory fails in experimental reality

Post by Diogenes »

MSimon wrote:
Again it does not solve the basic problem of killing innocent people. I gather you are for killing innocent people then?
It does keep costs down.

Yet the same people tend to oppose abortion by the folks who want to keep costs down. Killing innocents is wrong don't ya know.

The implication being that some people with whom Simon is angry are hypocrites. Such tortured logic you use.
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

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