Crime and Punishment: Oklahoma (& Texas) style!

[choff]

Was reading that income taxes came to the U.S. at the same time as the Federal Reserve System, along with the deficits that required taxation to pay. Similar pattern in Canada, negligable deficit and taxation until private central bankers took control of the currency.

[williatw]

Sixty percent of high school and college students say they plan on owning guns at a later stage in life, an academic study from American University revealed on Monday.

http://www.campusreform.org/blog/?ID=4576

Those findings were part of a broader study conducted by American University professor Jennifer L. Lawless and Loyola Marymount professor Richard L. Fox which focused on the political opinions of young Americans. The study was conducted prior the recent Newtown massacre, but after the Aurora theatre shooting.

Lawless told Campus Reform on Tuesday that in her view the findings were proof that President Obama should move swiftly, and without the permission of Congress if necessary, in order limit the availability of firearms.

“The next generation plans on owning guns, so if we want to avoid the tragedies that we’ve seen… we obviously need to move quickly and if an executive order is the way to do it, then that is the way the to do it,” she said.


Amazing how the masks are coming off....from "we are not trying to take your guns away", to yeah, we are, and if an executive order will work go for it.

[GIThruster]

The Roman Empire fell (and civilization with it) when the Romans could no longer protect the trade routes.

This is a gross mischaracterization of a very complex process that occurred over centuries and is perhaps the smallest influence of more than a dozen important issues. Point in fact, the actual fall of Rome to the Visigoths was because the Romans taught them how to store food in silos, and their numbers exploded. Then one cold night when the Rhine was frozen and they could easly cross, the Visigoths realized they were sitting next to a treasure trove and there was nothing to stop them from taking it. Trade routes had almost nothing to do with the end of Rome, and had the legions deployed across the empire been near Rome, it's likely it would not have fallen for several more centuries.

So you have it backward.

[GIThruster]

In America the drug of choice was alcohol - opiates were freely available in that era.

Why can't you leave your obnoxious views on drugs out of even a single thread here in the forum? This issue has nothing to do with drugs. You need to have your ass thrown out of here, simon. You're a pest.

[Diogenes]

It's 25 billion per year.* Yeah, we should get right on that after we pare down the 1 trillion per year we spend on entitlements.

$25 bn Federally. If you count all the costs - Federal, State, Local, Prisons. Reduced earning power of those with prison records. The welfare required to support families whose bread winner is in prison etc. The break down in family structure from having a large number of men in prison. And all the rest - the costs are considerably higher than $25 bn a year.

I argue that creating fatherless families results in fatherless children turning to crime. Welfare is a causal effect, not a consequent effect. Welfare (as it is currently constituted) creates perverse incentives. The government should not be taking the place of the father in a household. It creates "lord of the flies" children.

Promiscuity is rampant among young girls because there is no disincentive to behave more responsibly. I know several young girls that have gotten pregnant because they know that the government will take care of them and provide them a free home away from adults who tell them what to do.

In any case it is a start. You don't fix these things by a stroke of the pen. You whittle away at them. A $75 bn (all direct costs) whittle is not a bad start.

Much of the problem was created by strokes of the pen. LBJ's "War on Poverty" has caused far more poverty by disincentivizing behavior that helps people get out of poverty.

And in fact the States are taking the lead on this. They can't print money. So they are opting out. The same happened to alcohol prohibition.

I argue prohibition is preventing what happened in Portugal.

Portugal did not eliminate prohibition, and i'm not convinced they are telling the truth about the result of what they did do.

This Doctor disputes that Portugal is a success of any sort.

[GIThruster]

Glad to see S&W joined the boycott:

http://www.facebook.com/BoycottTheEaste ... utdoorShow

IIRC, back during the Clinton years, Ruger caved and supported portions of the Assault Weapons Ban including magazine limits, and the general public punished Ruger pretty heavily as result. Looks like S&W is stepping out early to say they will have no compromise with the gun control advocates. That is a huge endorsement for this boycott. I wonder whether Eastern Sports won't reverse their decision within the next 3 days. I'd look for it by Friday.

[williatw]

It's 25 billion per year.* Yeah, we should get right on that after we pare down the 1 trillion per year we spend on entitlements.

$25 bn Federally. If you count all the costs - Federal, State, Local, Prisons. Reduced earning power of those with prison records. The welfare required to support families whose bread winner is in prison etc. The break down in family structure from having a large number of men in prison. And all the rest - the costs are considerably higher than $25 bn a year.

I argue that creating fatherless families results in fatherless children turning to crime. Welfare is a causal effect, not a consequent effect. Welfare (as it is currently constituted) creates perverse incentives. Promiscuity is rampant among young girls because there is no disincentive to behave more responsibly. I know several young girls that have gotten pregnant because they know that the government will take care of them and provide them a free home away from adults who tell them what to do.

In any case it is a start. You don't fix these things by a stroke of the pen. You whittle away at them. A $75 bn (all direct costs) whittle is not a bad start.

Much of the problem was created by strokes of the pen. LBJ's "War on Poverty" has caused far more poverty by disincentivizing behavior that helps people get out of poverty.

Acknowledging that part is easy, few would disagree...the question is what would you do now today to fix the problem, not whose fault you think it is that it happened in the first place. I have said what I would do, what's your idea?

[Stubby]

If I recall correctly how sex works, there is a second party. Funny how digot never seems to blame the second party for anything. it is always unwed mother this or promiscuous teen that. Always seems to be the female's fault.

[hanelyp]

Diogenes' topic, as I read it, was perverse incentives of welfare programs. While the sperm donor shares blame for the pregnancy, he needs no incentive from government to be promiscuous. He just needs an available female, more easily had if she expects Uncle Sam to take care of her and any child that results.

[GIThruster]

Too I don't think "fault" is really the issue. Men don't get paid for getting women pregnant. Women do get paid for getting pregnant. It is however pretty hard to say just how many are doing it for the pay.

[Stubby]

A few of problems with what you said:

What percentage of promiscuous female teen pregnancies are due to these 'incentives'?
The sense i get from digot is most if not all of them, which is absurd.

What exactly is the dollar amount of these 'incentives'?

I can find this for the WIC (Women, Infants and Children program)
http://www.fns.usda.gov/pd/25wifyavgfd$.htm

the average monthly benefit per person is between 40-50 dollars.

It is very strange to me that teen promiscuity and thus teen pregnancy is being tied to welfare handouts. If that were the case, countries with a higher welfare rate should have higher teen pregnancy rates.

So according to digot's (GIT's and hanelyp's) position (i.e. welfare incentives create more teen pregnancy), sweden, germany, france should have higher teen pregnancy rates and yet their rates are considerably lower than the US.

1998 data (pregnancies per 1000 women 15-19)
US 52.1
Sweden 6.5
France 9.3
Germany 13.1
Belgium 9.9
Japan 4.6

2001 data (% GDP for welfare not including education) (Barr 2004)
US 14.8%
Sweden 28.9%
France 28.4%
Germany 27.4%
Belgium 27.2%
Japan 16.9%

so if the premise were true
Sweden should have 101.7 per 1000
France should have 100.0 per 1000
Germany should have 96.5 per 1000
Belgium should have 95.8 per 1000
Japan should have 59.5 per 1000

so the US spends half the GDP amount on welfare and yet has 4-11 times the number of teen pregnancies.

[GIThruster]

So according to digot's (GIT's and hanelyp's) position (i.e. welfare incentives create more teen pregnancy)

I didn't say that. I'll let the other guys answer for themselves but you're certainly mischaracterizing me AGAIN.

It's hard to believe you're as stupid as you pretend to be, Stubby, especially when I wrote "It is however pretty hard to say just how many are doing it for the pay." I'm pretty sure there's no one else here would honestly make that mistake--saying what you are saying I was saying. If you want us to believe you are really that stupid, well okay, but I think you do it on purpose.

[choff]

My take on the fall of the Roman Empire was the Western Roman emperors cannibalized the western half to invest in the rise of the Eastern Roman Empire. Adding to the mix was the fratricidal war with Parthia that bled both empires dry. Finally the stupid western emperors stripped the legions off the Rhine for service in the east. Britain and Spain were cut off when the barbarians took advantage and crossed the Rhine into Gaul.

Too many resources were lost for any possible recovery, it didn't help that the western emperors taxation methods amounted to pillage and murder. A parallel could be drawn to the modern financial services industry at work in the EU and the U.S.

[Stubby]

So according to digot's (GIT's and hanelyp's) position (i.e. welfare incentives create more teen pregnancy)

I didn't say that. I'll let the other guys answer for themselves but you're certainly mischaracterizing me AGAIN.

It's hard to believe you're as stupid as you pretend to be, Stubby, especially when I wrote "It is however pretty hard to say just how many are doing it for the pay." I'm pretty sure there's no one else here would honestly make that mistake--saying what you are saying I was saying. If you want us to believe you are really that stupid, well okay, but I think you do it on purpose.

your position is pretty clear and insulting me doesn't change that.
I noticed you didn't address the data though.

[GIThruster]

My take on the fall of the Roman Empire was the Western Roman emperors cannibalized the western half to invest in the rise of the Eastern Roman Empire. Adding to the mix was the fratricidal war with Parthia that bled both empires dry. Finally the stupid western emperors stripped the legions off the Rhine for service in the east. Britain and Spain were cut off when the barbarians took advantage and crossed the Rhine into Gaul.

Too many resources were lost for any possible recovery, it didn't help that the western emperors taxation methods amounted to pillage and murder. A parallel could be drawn to the modern financial services industry at work in the EU and the U.S.

Its a fascinating issue. Since it really did take several hundred years of decline to reach that point, it is very difficult to say which single influence was the most important. I think the argument from decadence or loss of civic virtue is a potent one. We see the same thing happen within months in our own lives. When life is difficult and people are frightened, or feel their work is incomplete, they work hard and sacrifice. When they feel secure they want more and more and provide less and less, until it all comes crumbling down. The last "Great Generation" from WWII that fought and sacrificed the way they did would never borrow themselves into debt the way we have. This would simply not occur to them. Those who know what we've done to this country that survive are universally dismayed at our decadent self-preocupation and pretty much think we deserve what we're gonna get very soon.

I would note too, that no matter how harshly we judge the Roman Empire, there has never been one to compare. 1,000 years of relative peace inside its boarders. That's amazing. The arts and engineering spread across such a fantastical region. When people talk about Gengis Kahn and the Mongol Empire they seldom note he didn't build anything. He pretty much raped, pillaged and destroyed across a larger area than any other Empire, but it's hard to call what he did, which was just large scale slaughters of civilians, anything remotely like the Roman accomplishments. We are here today, nearly everyone on this blog, and perhaps all of us, direct recipients of the benefits of Rome, 1,500 years after its fall. That's astonishing.