Crime and Punishment: Oklahoma (& Texas) style!

[GIThruster]

ADS is not currently deployed. It had been but was pulled off the battlefield some years ago. A lower power version is being developed for other uses. But yes, the data on the fact it burns skin and how it works is all available on Wiki. There has never been any connection to nerve endings. It makes people feel like their skin is burning because their skin is burning. It's just a big microwave generator. The frequency it uses is a little different than your 2.45 Ghz microwave oven chosen specifically such that it only penetrates about 1/2 mm into the skin. That's what delivers so much energy on target--the target is much smaller than a whole roast, or person.

In any case, I don't want people to misconstrue my words. I did not form an argument opposed to development of non-lethal weapons. I am merely pointing out they present a whole range of new issues to resolve, many of them ethical issues. I think there's often a misunderstanding of the long term consequences to such things. Just as with Guantanamo--permanent incarceration without a trial--is essentially a consequence of the "war on terror" that did not exist in any previous wars, so too do we have unexamined and complex consequences as regards fielding non-lethal weapons. It should not be take as a given that they are more "humane". They are not. They are merely inhumane in a different way.

Weapons are weapons. There is no "humane" about it. They are used for completely inhumane purposes. Imagine a flash-bang weapon that could blind soldiers on the battlefield instead of killing them. You would then have generations of blinded victims the victor would not doubt take responsibility for. How is that better than simply killing people in battle? The trouble is, the people in the Pentagon don't ask these questions before they invest millions of dollars to get an ADS or a lightning bolt generator.

[ladajo]

Links please.

[GIThruster]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Denial_System

http://www.ndu.edu/CTNSP/docUploaded/DT ... 060032.pdf

You'll find the misrepresentation about nerve endings at the bottom of page 5, top of page 6 in this second link. Al the language about nerve endings is double talk. The nerves send the message that the skin is burning because the skin is burning. Fact is, the ADS does cause burns and blistering. Deploying it in Iraq was all about doing real human trials. If you look at the official report, mitigation of real burning is done by the operator not continuing to fire over a set period of time, and a safety built into the system that will not allow prolonged exposure. But fact is, we have already seen blistering as a response and there is nothing to stop an operator from firing a second, third or forth time on a crowd that refuses to disburse.

Handing this stuff to prisons is just off the wall crazy.

[Diogenes]

Well, the guy who wrote that piece isn't quite the sharpest tool in the shed. His thesis, that plasma cannons are intended as a strategic weapon in space is pretty dopey, since for it to work, the laser has to ionize the air and there is no air in space.

Duh!

Mea culpa. Grabbed the first one without reading it closely.

But yes, I've followed this plasma gun design for years as well, though I wasn't aware of this news of testing at Picatinny. The earlier argument was indeed for a shoulder mounted weapon or rifle, that fired a taser like blast measured in tens of yards, that would stun. And yes, stuff like that has consequences. Think of all the hassles we have because of the prisoners at Guantanamo. Are we likely to ever let them go? No. If they had been killed in battle we would not have the problem we do, with prisoners of war that are never going to be released. That's one consequence of non-lethal weapons as well.

Worse are the non-military applications for such weapons. When the police start carrying such things we have serious trouble. They already tend to abuse tasers and use them when they don't need them. Imagine the urge to find an excuse to fire a lightning bolt at someone. You can assume it will be abused if the police ever get hold of it. Hell, if I could shoot lighting bolts, I'd be looking for targets too. Just as the head of the research team admits: "We never got tired of the lightning bolts zapping our simulated targets". I believe it. Must be cool to feel like Thor. To be the target--not so much.

You get it. Nuff said.

[Diogenes]

Seems similar in purpose and intent (if not function) to the active denial system that made a splash a few years ago, and that I have heard nothing about since.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Denial_System

A "pain ray" that leaves no lasting effects (or proof) has all kinds of possibility for abuse. The fact that nerve endings can be stimulated to produce pain with no physical damage is actually a would be torturer's wet dream. Pain inflicted session after session hour after hour without even death or serious bodily injury to provide some release to the hapless victim.

I have no doubt that it might be misused, but given it's large size for the emitter portion of the device, it is rather unweildly to use as one would a rifle or handgun sort of device. But yes, the same concerns apply.


Some of this discussion would fit nicely in the "Skynet is coming" thread. This is an overlapping topic it appears.

[ladajo]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Denial_System

http://www.ndu.edu/CTNSP/docUploaded/DT ... 060032.pdf

You'll find the misrepresentation about nerve endings at the bottom of page 5, top of page 6 in this second link. Al the language about nerve endings is double talk. The nerves send the message that the skin is burning because the skin is burning. Fact is, the ADS does cause burns and blistering. Deploying it in Iraq was all about doing real human trials. If you look at the official report, mitigation of real burning is done by the operator not continuing to fire over a set period of time, and a safety built into the system that will not allow prolonged exposure. But fact is, we have already seen blistering as a response and there is nothing to stop an operator from firing a second, third or forth time on a crowd that refuses to disburse.

Handing this stuff to prisons is just off the wall crazy.

Thanks, I'm giving it a look. But on first reaction, I don't see much difference with the use of ADS or Tear Gas & Pepper Spray. You can kill with those, and it seems to be much harder to do so with ADS.

If what you are saying is correct, they get some sunburn, and then suffer for the stupidity. But again, I have not given it a good read yet.

[ladajo]

Okay, read it.

I do not agree with your take. Yes, as I alluded to above, you can roast anything with a microwave transmitter given time and opportunity. But to do so with ADS would take way more effort than other systems in the field. Pick any ship board Fire Control Radar for example, point it at a person in certain modes, and you are going to do some cooking, really fast.

From the second link pages 5/6:

Basic Science. At 95GHz, the ADS energy is non-ionizing, meaning that the millimeter waves do not have enough photonic energy to affect cellular structure. The energy reaches a skin depth of 1/64th inch, raising the skin’s temperature in a manner similar to the infrared energy from the sun. The ADS heating sensation is intense, but it does not produce a burn; the sensation ends when exposure to the beam ends. The increase in skin temperature triggers nociceptors, which are nerve endings in the skin that are thermal sensitive. This sudden exposure to the nerve endings evokes the temporary, intolerable heating sensation and instinctive human escape response.

and a little later at the top of page 7:

As of the time of writing, there have been over 11,000 exposures on over 700 humans in the laboratory and field studies. Of those 700 humans, 172 volunteers were exposed in the laboratory small spot size evaluations; the other volunteers were exposed in outdoor field assessments using the full spot size from the full-scale millimeter wave source and antenna configuration.
With respect to concerns about skin damage, in most instances there is no after-effect. On occasion, some skin reddening and irritation has been observed. The 11,000 exposures produced only eight second-degree burns, six of which consisted of pea-size blisters that healed without medical attention. The other two required medical care; both individuals
recovered fully without complications.

So I see little to no risk, even though the paper does not explain the circumstance of the eight blistering burns of the over 11,000 (as of June 2009) shots. And, in addition, of the eight, only two required medical treatment, and one of those was a lab accident in 1999.

I think you are putting way more into your assessment than is warranted based on the evidence you present.
Do you have any other evidence?

[paperburn1]

I have seen some video of testing(will try and locate links) and whatever they are doing ,you without a doubt do not want to be a part of it. They made a army ranger run so its got to work extremely well. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... xJk2NuvSBM

[GIThruster]

I think you are putting way more into your assessment than is warranted based on the evidence you present.
Do you have any other evidence?

I haven't looked at it in a couple years but I think our takes are similar. Tear gas accomplishes the same goals, so why bother with multi-million dollar Humvees?

The real problem is the notion of non-lethal force. It's the consequences of this that go unexamined. For instance, look at the fact that the Warden at LA Co. prison wants his own ray gun. What's the point of that? Why would we spend millions of dollars putting something like that in a prison when a few canisters of pepper spray can do the same job, and not open up special cause for litigation?

Too just noting, the word salad surrounding the thing talking about nerves is all crazy talk. The nerves send the message that the skin feels like it's burning, when the skin feels like its burning. All the language about how the nerves send that signal is red herring. People wanted a ray gun and now we have it. So what would we do with it? Put one atop our embassies overseas? Not bloody likely.

If you read the second of the links, there is the case mentioned that of speedboats approaching our warships that need to be warned away. Trouble is for that, you need thousands of yards of range. This doesn't have adequate range for the kind of application mentioned in the paper. I don't recall the range but it's less than 100 meters. Again, this is the rhetoric surrounding selling the system. It's all about money.

[paperburn1]

all you need is a little foil or Mylar and ! boom ineffective

[ladajo]

Yes it is fairly easy to get some shielding effect. But you do need to be thorough. Protesters would look awful silly all wrapped up in tin-foil. Adds new meaning to "Tin-Foil Hat".

But that said, I would say weather impacts it more so than shielding. Air moisture, heavy dust, etc.

As for range, I would have to check. As I recall it was up to 200 meters or so. You can do better with a Fire Control system.

Soup-d'jour for ships is LRAD. If need be you can do some real damage with it as well. But that would not be nice, and I doubt anyone could persist enough to make it required.

[williatw]

Flashback: Clinton Requests $60 Million to Put Cops in Schools


http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Journalism ... in-Schools


Today, the same elite media who no doubt send their own kids to private schools that employ armed security, just can't stop howling ridicule at the NRA's idea to give every student in America those same protections. Because the NRA's idea is so appealing, as I write this, the media's going overboard, mocking it as bizarre, crazy, and out of touch.

This is how the media works to silence and vilify the opposition and to ensure that only their ideas control The Narrative. The media doesn't care about securing our schools; they only care about coming after our guns and handing Obama another political win.

The media also doesn’t care how wildly hypocritical they look.

In their zeal to rampage this left-wing agenda, the media has apparently forgotten that back in 2000, on the one-year anniversary of the Columbine shooting (which occurred with an assault weapons ban in place), President Clinton requested $60 million in federal money to fund a fifth round of funding for a program called "COPS in School," a program that does exactly what the NRA is proposing and the media is currently in overdrive mocking

Clinton also unveiled the $60-million fifth round of funding for "COPS in School," a Justice Department program that helps pay the costs of placing police officers in schools to help make them safer for students and teachers. The money will be used to provide 452 officers in schools in more than 220 communities.

"Already, it has placed 2,200 officers in more than 1,000 communities across our nation, where they are heightening school safety as well as coaching sports and acting as mentors and mediators for kids in need," Clinton said.

The media is not only so driven to ensure Sandy Hook is used to win this round on gun control that they've become morally blinded to what really needs to be done to immediately secure our schools; they've lost their grip historically and politically.

Think about it: The media is entering a new year attempting to convince parents that their children will be less safe with a policeman in their school.

Off the rails doesn’t even begin to describe it.

[GIThruster]

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government ... ith-Rifles

[ladajo]

The average number of people shot in a mass shooting event when the shooter is stopped by law enforcement: 14. The average number of people shot in a mass shooting event when the shooter is stopped by civilians: 2.5. The reason is simple. The armed civilians are there when it started.

http://1389blog.com/2012/12/23/larry-co ... d-for-all/

An interesting read to be sure.

[choff]

The thing I like about giving school staff tasers is that nobody can go off their rocker with a taser and kill 20 people, but give those 20 people tasers, and a nutjob with a gun is presented with a real challenge while the authorities are dispatched. While it's unlikely to kill an assailant with one taser shot, the other 19 people would want to discharge their weapons just to make sure the assailant is properly subdued.

Was watching 'programmed to kill' part 68 yesterday on youtube about the Sandy Hook shooting, plus the back episodes. Probably all conjecture, but if a fraction of the 'evidence' presented held up, it presents a new angle on these crimes.