Crime and Punishment: Oklahoma (& Texas) style!

[choff]

So once guns are prohibited, that will mean speakeasy shooting ranges, mandatory rehab for repeat gun possesion offenders, mobsters fighting over turf in the bootleg bullet market. The War on Guns with the CIA smuggling weapons in from Columbia on private planes.

[Diogenes]

This entire topic is going to be used to push us down the Socialist path, mark my words. This is exactly where OBama's panel is going to lead--the creation of a national police force.

Exactly right. The NRA should be terrified of the idea instead of supporting it. Look at how well the TSA has worked out.

[Diogenes]

Is this topic so emotionally charged that people never change their mind once they have chosen a side? Have any of you changed your mind on this topic in one direction or the other? If so, what argument did you find persuasive?

One of my oldest friends is a black guy whom I met in High-school. When we initially met, he advocated all of the usual positions of his demographic. Over time, and as we had opportunity to discuss things, he evolved towards my conservative positions. Initially he was dead set against guns, and didn't think anyone should have them.


I took him out to target practice, and later to my cousin's for squirrel hunting, and the transformation was astonishing. He became a full fledged gun-nut, far more enthusiastic about it than I ever was. He started reading "Guns and Ammo" and "Soldier of Fortune" and anything at all related to guns. He started buying and selling all sorts of handguns, and to this day he remains a very staunch believer in the right of Americans to own and use guns. He is in fact, a bit of a fanatic about it.


So if you ask me, the absolute most persuasive argument is to take someone to shoot targets and let them have at it.

[williatw]

This entire topic is going to be used to push us down the Socialist path, mark my words. This is exactly where OBama's panel is going to lead--the creation of a national police force.

Exactly right. The NRA should be terrified of the idea instead of supporting it. Look at how well the TSA has worked out.

I assume you think his "peace corps" type thing I seemed to remember him talking about, will become the equivalent of brown shirts. After all we already have a "national police force", the FBI, ATF, DEA etc. Brown shirts only worked for Hitler because the German people were already pretty much disarmed, and after he got elected he didn't need them anymore and threw them under the bus. That raid he led against Röhm and the rest of the leadership. Obama would have to deal with 80 million gun owners, who wouldn't be that easily intimidated by such. Suppose his hypothetical brownshirts could start going after the NRA, while he makes sure law enforcement looks the other way. Don't think that would end well, too many guns in the hands of the people. Merely talking about banning "assault weapons" and they are flying off the shelves, as well as NRA membership soaring. In any case what good would they do him now? Hitler used them to get "elected"... Obama is already elected to 2nd & last term, that's the end of the trail for him.

[Diogenes]

This entire topic is going to be used to push us down the Socialist path, mark my words. This is exactly where OBama's panel is going to lead--the creation of a national police force.

Exactly right. The NRA should be terrified of the idea instead of supporting it. Look at how well the TSA has worked out.

I assume you think his "peace corps" type thing I seemed to remember him talking about, will become the equivalent of brown shirts. After all we already have a "national police force", the FBI, ATF, DEA etc. Brown shirts only worked for Hitler because the German people were already pretty much disarmed, and after he got elected he didn't need them anymore and threw them under the bus. That raid he led against Röhm and the rest of the leadership. Obama would have to deal with 80 million gun owners, who wouldn't be that easily intimidated by such. Suppose his hypothetical brownshirts could start going after the NRA, while he makes sure law enforcement looks the other way. Don't think that would end well, too many guns in the hands of the people. Merely talking about banning "assault weapons" and they are flying off the shelves, as well as NRA membership soaring. In any case what good would they do him now? Hitler used them to get "elected"... Obama is already elected to 2nd & last term, that's the end of the trail for him.

I will be convinced that he is gone AFTER he is gone. In my opinion the nation passed a Rubicon, and I no longer believe everything will be "okay." By my calculus things are very likely to get very very ugly.


There is a reason why guns are flying off the shelves. Much of the populace thinks as do I.

[williatw]

I will be convinced that he is gone AFTER he is gone. In my opinion the nation passed a Rubicon, and I no longer believe everything will be "okay." By my calculus things are very likely to get very very ugly.
There is a reason why guns are flying off the shelves. Much of the populace thinks as do I.

My point is that Hitler needed his brown shirts to get himself in office to intimidate his political opponents on the streets. Afterward he didn't need them and dispensed with them, his "brown shirts" at that point were the SS, Gestapo, etc., in other words the apparatus of the state was then fully under his control. Hard to see how Obama could take over as dictator, he would need the support of the military, Law Enforcement, etc. With their support he wouldn't need brown shirts, without their support couldn't take over anyway. I suppose he could engineer some kind of anarchy like our fiscal cliff/debt problem..use the resulting social unrest to declare some kind of defacto martial law. And just like they did after Catrina, go full bore gun grabber in the interest of public safety.

[GIThruster]

After all we already have a "national police force", the FBI, ATF, DEA etc.

Those are not police forces. You have a fundamental misunderstanding what Federalism is all about. This misunderstanding is what most people share who enjoy notions of knocking down state barriers.

As a gun ownership supporter, part of me wishes that laws about guns were not reserved to the States, because when one wants to move firearms across state lines, it is a huge problem. Federal carry permits that sidestep the state laws are rare, and any hunter who wants to hunt out of state has a huge number of hoops to jump through, in order to move their weapons for a hunt.

Still, as a federalist, I understand that we are NOT supposed to have a national police force. If you don't understand the difference between federal and national, that would be the source of the problem.

[williatw]

The other Piers Morgan petition


http://www.politico.com/blogs/media/201 ... 52794.html

While the petition to deport British CNN anchor Piers Morgan has just topped 70,000 — almost three times the number of signatures needed to require a formal White House response — an alternative petition still has a ways to go.

The petition to "Keep Piers Morgan in the USA" has a mere 80 signatures, as of 10 a.m. Wednesday.
...Morgan became a lightning rod in the ongoing gun control debate when he spoke out against pro-gun advocates last week. Morgan called Larry Pratt, executive director of Gun Owners for America, "dangerous," "stupid," and "an idiot." The next night, he told John Lott, the author of More Guns, Less Crime that he needed "to stop repeating a blatant lie about what happens in other countries."....

http://www.politico.com/blogs/media/201 ... 52415.html

He was on full on gun-grabber mode when talking to Larry Pratt and John Lott.

However he got owned by Jesse Ventura a few months ago on the same subject:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kv9ZoiG1Cyw


Curiously not once did he accuse him of "lying" or being "incredibly stupid".

[GIThruster]

and AZ style it seems too:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/12 ... employees/

[choff]

Is it better to have Morgan on the outside p1$$ing in or keep him on the inside p1$$ing out? He has to learn that solutions must be realistic, 2nd amendment isn't going to go away, guns aren't going to go away, no sense berating gun owners, must work with what you've got.

That means screen for the most mentally well balanced staffer or two in schools, train and arm appropriately. We had a near massacre at one university in Canada, averted because police on drug stakeout saw the perp entering with weapon, followed and stopped incident.

Not ideal solution, but least worst.

I'm on outside p1$$ing in.

[GIThruster]

I've heard this argument Morgan makes several times now about how he in in favor of gun ownership, but questions how gun ownership entails people have assault weapons and 6,000 rounds of ammo. Tp the best of my knowledge, it's a disingenuous argument since none of these recent mass murders have ever used an assault weapon. The latest shooter had access to a single fire assault style weapon, but he didn't use it and instead chose a pair of handguns. Also, I have seen others explain to Morgan that shooters commonly fire 6,000 rounds in a few shooting sessions. It makes no sense to limit ammo either. He's all rhetoric, no substance.

[williatw]

I've heard this argument Morgan makes several times now about how he in in favor of gun ownership, but questions how gun ownership entails people have assault weapons and 6,000 rounds of ammo. Tp the best of my knowledge, it's a disingenuous argument since none of these recent mass murders have ever used an assault weapon. The latest shooter had access to a single fire assault style weapon, but he didn't use it and instead chose a pair of handguns. Also, I have seen others explain to Morgan that shooters commonly fire 6,000 rounds in a few shooting sessions. It makes no sense to limit ammo either. He's all rhetoric, no substance.

Handguns, rifles, magazines; Sen. Feinstein wants them all

http://www.examiner.com/article/handgun ... b_articles

..A perennial anti-gunner, Sen. Feinstein had apparently been drafting a measure since September, but has used the Dec. 14 Sandy Hook Elementary school tragedy to get traction.

Feinstein’s “wish list” proposal is now posted on her website. Here are the provisions:

• Bans the sale, transfer, importation, or manufacturing of:
o 120 specifically-named firearms
o Certain other semiautomatic rifles, handguns, shotguns that can accept a detachable magazine and have one military characteristic
o Semiautomatic rifles and handguns with a fixed magazine that can accept more than 10 rounds

• Strengthens the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban and various state bans by:
o Moving from a 2-characteristic test to a 1-characteristic test
o Eliminating the easy-to-remove bayonet mounts and flash suppressors from the characteristics test
o Banning firearms with “thumbhole stocks” and “bullet buttons” to address attempts to “work around” prior bans

• Bans large-capacity ammunition feeding devices capable of accepting more than 10 rounds.

• Protects legitimate hunters and the rights of existing gun owners by:
o Grandfathering weapons legally possessed on the date of enactment
o Exempting over 900 specifically-named weapons used for hunting or sporting purposes and
o Exempting antique, manually-operated, and permanently disabled weapons

• Requires that grandfathered weapons be registered under the National Firearms Act, to include:
o Background check of owner and any transferee;
o Type and serial number of the firearm;
o Positive identification, including photograph and fingerprint;
o Certification from local law enforcement of identity and that possession would not violate State or local law; and
o Dedicated funding for ATF to implement registration

In addition, according to her website, persons who already own firearms that would be on the ban list can retain them so long as they go through a federal registration process, same as owners of fully-automatic weapons and other “NFA” weapons.

"The Feinstein bill Requires that grandfathered weapons be registered under the National Firearms Act, to include:
•Background check of owner and any transferee;
•Type and serial number of the firearm;
•Positive identification, including photograph and fingerprint;
•Certification from local law enforcement of identity and that possession would not violate State or local law; and
•Dedicated funding for ATF to implement registration."

Gun owners fear that registration is a prelude to confiscation at some later date. Independent blogger Mike Vanderboegh weighs in here.

While the “Guns Save Lives” website has already declared the measure “dead-on-arrival,” there is no guarantee that this will be the case. President Obama has given anti-gun Vice President Joe Biden a deadline in mid-January to come up with proposals to address gun violence, and there is little doubt that a ban on so-called “assault weapons” will be high on the list of priorities.

One feature of Feinstein’s proposal is a ban on “thumbhole stocks.” These are in wide use, primarily as a cosmetic feature that helps a shooter stabilize a rifle or shotgun during discharge. They are popular with varmint and predator hunters, and target shooters.

Another tenet of the Feinstein package is to ban the “bullet button,” which is described by Gene Hoffman at the Calguns Foundation as a device that “turns a detachable magazine rifle into a fixed magazine 10 round rifle so that it can retain features while allowing the magazine to be removed with a tool to clear jams or reload.” This applies to current California law...

So pretty much what wouldn't be initially banned would have to be registered so that they know where to go when they finally get around to banning. Yeah that how concealed weapon carrying Feinstein "respects" the 2nd amendment.

[choff]

What about giving all the teachers and staff Tasers? Less problems than giving one or two of them guns. Not as useful if the assailant uses a long gun, but if the students take cover he has to get in close anyway. Not as effective as sidearms but good in the interim while the debate rages on.

[ladajo]

It is only really useful if they are allowed to take the asshole out in to the parking lot after they taser him and then shoot him in the head with a shotgun. Well, I guess they could just crush his skull with a car and save the round.

Any questions on where I stand about these school shooting cowards?
No excuse, no mercy.

[paperburn1]

It is only really useful if they are allowed to take the asshole out in to the parking lot after they taser him and then shoot him in the head with a shotgun. Well, I guess they could just crush his skull with a car and save the round.

Any questions on where I stand about these school shooting cowards?
No excuse, no mercy.

there s a meme floating around that states that in attempted mass murder. When an armed citizens get involved the average body count is 2.5. When waiting for a police response the average number is 18.2. Does anyone know any supporting documentation?