Nissan Electric Vehicle

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blaisepascal
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Post by blaisepascal »

Nanos wrote:> It reminds me of in the UK at least, with our bottled gas supplies that its pot luck whether you get a damaged/leaky bottle or not, as they are returned and reused, and people pay a deposit on them when they first sign up to use them.
That's exactly what I was thinking. When I was growing up, my father owned a few gas welding rigs (he made jewelery, and a small acetylene or oxyacetylene torch was perfect for soldering silver and gold. The last time I visited his shop, he was using a hydrogen torch that ran on water and electricity). He owned the tanks, but whenever he went to get them filled, the gas supplier would actually trade tanks. The cost of periodic inspection, testing, and replacement of the tanks was built into the cost of the gas.

It seems that model is exactly how a EV battery exchange service should work. Each battery would have a serial number by which its service history could be tracked, and would include electronics to monitor its charge and current capacity, and charge history, as well as other characteristics of the battery. The physical and electronic interfaces could easily be standardized, while allowing the actual chemistry of the battery to vary.

Each charge at a service station would consist of swapping out batteries and paying a fee which is based on the difference in charge between the old and new battery, and this would include amortized costs of battery replacement. Imagine standardized batteries holding a usable charge of 20kWh (a figure thrown around earlier), costing $5000 each, and capable of 3000 charges (on average) before retirement. The cost per kWh for the battery replacement is about 9 cents/kWh, or $1.80/full charge. If a service station services 100 cars a day, they'll have to buy a new battery every month, on average.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

Sure you could make batteries in units of 20 mi. - except that they degrade with use.

Suppose you have to use two 20 mi batteries to get 20 mi actual? You don't get 20 mi actual because the weight of batteries is increased. And now instead of one 100 mi battery you have 5 - 20 mi batteries to fool with. And you have to design the auto for 200 mi range worth of batteries. Reducing the range due to the added weight. So now you get 80 mi of travel from the nominal 200 mi worth of batteries.

In any case America is a much less collectivized society. I don't think what you are proposing would sell here. In addition people take better care of their own stuff than they do when property is collectivized. i.e the batteries last longer reducing waste.

Engineering is not just about technology. It is also about human nature.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

Each charge at a service station would consist of swapping out batteries and paying a fee which is based on the difference in charge between the old and new battery, and this would include amortized costs of battery replacement. Imagine standardized batteries holding a usable charge of 20kWh (a figure thrown around earlier), costing $5000 each, and capable of 3000 charges (on average) before retirement. The cost per kWh for the battery replacement is about 9 cents/kWh, or $1.80/full charge. If a service station services 100 cars a day, they'll have to buy a new battery every month, on average.
However, that means 100 X $5,000 in inventory vs $2 X 100 X 30 = $6,000 in base sales. i.e. inventory is going to greatly increase the cost.

Yearly sales = $75,000 in electricity + $50,000 cost of inventory. Then you have to pay for labor and make a profit. So now given the typical retail factor of 4X including all overheads You are paying $15 for 100 mi of travel. About the same price as gasoline in the USA with a 30 mpg auto.

It is really impossible to define a system unless you run the numbers.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

Nanos
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Post by Nanos »

> In addition people take better care of their own stuff than they
> do when property is collectivized

I have noticed this to be true myself, but I wonder, is that always the case ?


> About the same price

Except though, most of the money will stay in the country and not be exported, less unemployment, so wouldn't there be additional savings for the entire country ?

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

Nanos wrote:> In addition people take better care of their own stuff than they
> do when property is collectivized

I have noticed this to be true myself, but I wonder, is that always the case ?


> About the same price

Except though, most of the money will stay in the country and not be exported, less unemployment, so wouldn't there be additional savings for the entire country ?
So far in 3,000+ years it has shown to be true. Ownership means more care.

It doesn't matter if the money stays in the country. What matters is what it is used for.

i.e. are you worse off when a Saudi buys a Brit car with oil money?

Are you worse off when the money is used for 7/7 type attacks?
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

Nanos
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Post by Nanos »

> It doesn't matter if the money stays in the country

I firmly disagree there!

Exporting your wealth leaves your population unemployed, I hardly call that something that doesn't matter!


> are you worse off when a Saudi buys a Brit car with oil money

I'm not sure we make cars anymore for such a person to buy one...

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

Nanos wrote:> It doesn't matter if the money stays in the country

I firmly disagree there!

Exporting your wealth leaves your population unemployed, I hardly call that something that doesn't matter!


> are you worse off when a Saudi buys a Brit car with oil money

I'm not sure we make cars anymore for such a person to buy one...
Sending money out of the country is not an export of wealth. Is mercantilism still popular with the Brits?

Money is not wealth. Stuff you can use is wealth. BTW I was under the impression that the Brits were export oriented. Has that changed? As long as you export at a profit money going away for a while is not a loss. I mean if you buy products from Scotland is your neighborhood poorer?

Nanos, please take a course in economics from a non-communist/socialist. May I suggest a short course by Milton Friedman - videos on the intertubz.

Really. If you are going to sell a product, a study of the economic behavior of humans is essential. Figuring out how to make something is only the first step.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

Nanos
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Post by Nanos »

> BTW I was under the impression that the Brits were export
> oriented. Has that changed?

For a while now thats being going down hill, such to the extent that we import an awful lot nowdays, and the country as a whole is getting into more debt rather than less.


> Stuff you can use is wealth

But you need money to buy stuff..


Thanks for the Milton Friedman pointer BTW.


> if you buy products from Scotland is your neighborhood poorer?

Yes.


> a study of the economic behavior of humans is essential.

I have done this over the years and spent 2 solid years studying it in a MMORPG I was playing (Eve-Online) which helped me better understand and test my theories. (As I was able to understand enough to make 10x the income of an ordinary run organisation by running a cooperative, I consider my knowledge promising.) I learnt an awful lot, and in particular why the poor hate the rich, because I saw people who one day was poor and helpful to their fellow man, change over night to ruthless uncaring souls who would sell their own mother for a buck. I saw how middlemen make heaps by trading, how large organisations used violence to force workers to continue working for peanuts. All just like the real world ;-)


As such, it interests me greatly to understand others thoughts/views/insights on how these things work. I do get to listen to my rich friends tell me how to scam/exploit others for money, but it does not interest me to behave in that way to improve my lot by stepping on those below me in unfair exchanges.


Perhaps if we could look at some examples with simple figures, maybe involving carrots, a house, a landlord, a tenant, importer, exporter/etc. so we can see how the whole cycle works, or is supposed to..

JohnSmith
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Post by JohnSmith »

Not that this is particularly on topic, but the use of MMO games for research is kind of cool. I'm sure most of you know about the WoW bug that caused a plague to break out? Got a whole bunch of researchers interested in using it to see how people react to pandemics.
It's funny how people react pretty much the same with their game self as they do in the real world.

And now back to your regularly scheduled programing...

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

middlemen make heaps by trading
It is called connecting buyer and seller. A good thing. In the real world: As long as you get the goods cheaper than you could if you made them yourself you are profiting. No matter what the middleman makes.

According to your lights if you work for some one you make them poorer.

According to your lights if you don't grow your own oranges you are poorer if you buy them. If you don't make your own batteries you are poorer if you by them. If you need your leg set from a break you are poorer if you pay a dr to do it. etc. Which says you do not understand the value of the division of labor. Adam Smith and the Pin Factory would help you here.

You might want to read some David Riccardo on trade.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

I do get to listen to my rich friends tell me how to scam/exploit others for money, but it does not interest me to behave in that way to improve my lot by stepping on those below me in unfair exchanges.


Sounds like you need some better friends.

In America, business (for the most part) is about giving value to the customer. It must be really ugly to be a Brit these days if the lot you hang with is representative.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

Nanos
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Post by Nanos »

> but the use of MMO games for research is kind of cool

I find it so useful that is one of the main reasons why I'm writing my own, so I have access to all the data (And make the data available for others to study.) and can study better humans. Especially as I want to build physical communities, a bit of MMOPG first I reckon will help me improve the design I already have in mind by testing out different approaches in a controlled environment.

Things from, do we really need double yellow lines, are roundabouts better than traffic lights, to immigration control and just where do you place walkway paths.. (Ever notice architects still put them in the wrong places, you can tell because your see muddy tracks in the grass where people actually walk.)


> It must be really ugly to be a Brit these days if the lot you hang
> with is representative.

Its not just Brit business folk I speak with :-)

Its more a modern trait if anything, and I come across plenty of American products that are equally as bad, even German made items are now coming across of a poor design, with dreadful customer services.

This drive for value for money is leaving us with poorly designed, low quality tat that when you have a problem with no one cares to help you with, from companies badly run with idiots at all levels fighting for their little bit of money and sticking the knife in the back of whoever gets in the way.

I do come across the odd almost old fashioned family run business still intact and running well, but we are rapidly running out of these.


> It is called connecting buyer and seller. A good thing

But its not! If you did away with the middle man, all the profit would be had by the producer and the buyer would get cheaper products. By having a middle man they cream off something between for very little work. Give the producers and buyers better access to price information and you can elimate the need for the middleman. (Is why I see the internet so useful in this manner, you can even do away with the need for retail premises and just sell direct, plus buyers can more easily find out about the producers products from reviews. (Its a shame Ebay make this so hard now..))


> According to your lights

I don't understand what this means.


> if you work for some one you make them poorer

No, you make them richer, you also get richer too. (Assuming your paid for your work!) The question one might ask there is your wages a fair amount, eg. if you work an hour and help earn your boss $100 and you only get paid $10 thats not very fair in my book, if you get paid more like $40 thats much nearer.


> if you don't grow your own oranges you are poorer if you buy them

Yes.


> If you don't make your own batteries you are poorer if you by them

Yes.


> Which says you do not understand the value of the division of labor.

Could you explain it please.

Do you mean as below ?

http://william-king.www.drexel.edu/top/ ... o111g.html

I was already aware of that, perhaps I'm missing something else your trying to explain to me.

JohnSmith
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Post by JohnSmith »

"By your lights" would mean "according to you," or "by how you think."

I suppose you could see buying the oranges as making you poorer. After all, you could have grown them.

But like Simon said, you've got to take division of labor into account. That is, somebody who grows a few thousand orange trees can sell you oranges for less than it would have cost to plant the tree, make sure it was healthy, etc.
So you'd be more poor if you grew the tree yourself.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

If you did away with the middle man, all the profit would be had by the producer and the buyer would get cheaper products.
Do you want a crate of oranges? Or would you rather go to the greengrocer and buy half a dozen.

Do you want to make a trip to the countryside to get your crate or would you prefer a stroll to the market.

Logistics has value.

Does the mfg want to deal with 100,000 transactions or is it better for him to focus on making product and selling in 10,000 unit lots?

You are leaving out all the things it takes to get 1 unit in your hands and are only considering the unit cost at point of origin. That is not a fair representation of all the effort involved to put 1 unit in your hands.

As I keep telling people: logistics is invisible to most people. All they see is the 2 cents in metal and 1 cent for the container in a 99 cent box of paper clips. And they have he nerve to say it's a rip off. How about the book keeping alone?
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

Would you like to go to one plumbing store for all your fittings or would you prefer dealing with 20 different mfgs?

Would you want to deal with chrome or gold platers to get the finish you want or would it be better to go to a store so you can just decide by looking?
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

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