If Only They Would Stick to Fiscal Issues

GIThruster · Post by **GIThruster** » Thu Nov 01, 2012 11:44 pm

Skipjack wrote:. . .lost years are still better than a lost life...

Yes they are, but you've still failed to demonstrate a difference in kind between wrongful incarceration and wrongful capital punishment. Furthermore, we never make laws based upon how they might go wrong. That's foolish. Regardless of the circumstance, we always ought to strive to be correct when punishing anyone for anything.

Just IMHO, but in my experience, arguments against capital punishment always come down to the people making the argument trying to demonstrate themselves sophisticated, or otherwise above what they deem barbaric measures, when in fact it is these same people who have utterly failed to come to terms with the need for punishment at all. So you know, I'm not making that judgement based on a small sample. In fact, when in grad school, my professor for Morality of Punishment was a strong opponent of all punishment. He didn't believe in incarceration at all.

Skipjack · Post by **Skipjack** » Fri Nov 02, 2012 12:12 am

but you've still failed to demonstrate a difference in kind between wrongful incarceration and wrongful capital punishment

I dont understand the problem. I demonstrated the difference: One can be somewhat corrected if mistakes were made, the other one cant. It is that simple.

Furthermore, we never make laws based upon how they might go wrong. That's foolish. Regardless of the circumstance, we always ought to strive to be correct when punishing anyone for anything.

As usual you are speaking nonsense.
The idea that it is "better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer" goes back to William Blackstone (and actually even further than that) and is part of what makes the cornerstone of pretty much every civilized law system in the world.

Skipjack · Post by **Skipjack** » Fri Nov 02, 2012 12:15 am

Just IMHO, but in my experience, arguments against capital punishment always come down to the people making the argument trying to demonstrate themselves sophisticated, or otherwise above what they deem barbaric measures, when in fact it is these same people who have utterly failed to come to terms with the need for punishment at all. So you know, I'm not making that judgement based on a small sample. In fact, when in grad school, my professor for Morality of Punishment was a strong opponent of all punishment. He didn't believe in incarceration at all.

Whether so and so was against all punishment at all (which I am not, btw) is irrelevant to the discussion. As long as there are humans involved with the process of determining the guilt or innocense of a person, mistakes will be made. Because of this, I am against capital punishment. There are other means of punishment that can be substituted, labor camps, e.g..

GIThruster · Post by **GIThruster** » Fri Nov 02, 2012 12:26 am

Skipjack wrote:
but you've still failed to demonstrate a difference in kind between wrongful incarceration and wrongful capital punishment
I dont understand the problem. I demonstrated the difference: One can be somewhat corrected if mistakes were made, the other one cant. It is that simple.

Oh! We only need to somewhat correct the problem! I wish I had known. Okay, so we can send flowers to the family in the case of a wrongful execution. That corrects the problem about as much as handing cash to someone wrongfully imprisoned.

You see, what you don't do is face the brutal fact that all punishment entails the possibility it can go wrong. So long as you refuse to face the salient facts, you can make up nonsense scenarios about "somewhat correction" to support your irrational position. You cannot correct a wrongful incarceration any more than a wrongful execution, and that is the FACT of the matter.

Skipjack · Post by **Skipjack** » Fri Nov 02, 2012 12:29 am

Okay, so we can send flowers to the family in the case of a wrongful execution. That corrects the problem about as much as handing cash to someone wrongfully imprisoned.

We seriously have this argument? This is your argumentation? I am speechless.

paperburn1 · Post by **paperburn1** » Fri Nov 02, 2012 12:45 am

Skipjack wrote:
How exactly? This seems obviously wrong to me. I don't see any way to compensate someone for the wrong and damage done from false imprisonment.
Money? It wont be a great compensation, but it would help. Of course you cant give the person the lost years back, but lost years are still better than a lost life...

john Wayne still said it best, "some men just need killing "

Skipjack · Post by **Skipjack** » Fri Nov 02, 2012 1:28 am

john Wayne still said it best, "some men just need killing "

Yeah, only problem is if you shoot the wrong guy...

GIThruster · Post by **GIThruster** » Fri Nov 02, 2012 2:13 am

Skipjack wrote:We seriously have this argument? This is your argumentation? I am speechless.

You are speechless because you are ignorant of what the proper discussion needs to be about. The proper discussion concerns justice, not how justice can go wrong. In order to have an informed opinion about something like capital punishment, you need to look at various theories of punishment and embrace one or more. Only then are you suited to a conversation about them. Simply stamping your little foot and declaring "but we could be wrong!" is not thinking about the matter at hand. And this is precisely the problem with most opponents of the death penalty--they haven't even begun to address the real issue. Instead, they're busy trying to convince themselves and others that they're sophisticated and above such considerations.

Just FYI, your phony sophistication and pretended compassion is just that. You want to stand in judgement of those who don't agree with you, that they don't recoil appropriately in horror at the notion of executing an innocent man, when the trouble is, you don't recoil in horror at the thought of imprisoning an innocent man.

Skipjack · Post by **Skipjack** » Fri Nov 02, 2012 3:08 am

You are speechless because you are ignorant of what the proper discussion needs to be about. The proper discussion concerns justice, not how justice can go wrong. In order to have an informed opinion about something like capital punishment, you need to look at various theories of punishment and embrace one or more. Only then are you suited to a conversation about them. Simply stamping your little foot and declaring "but we could be wrong!" is not thinking about the matter at hand.

More nonsense! I stated two facts about any justice system on the planet.
Mistakes can be made, have been made, many times and death is irreversible. Because of that the death penalty is going to get innocent people killed. Not usually, bot sometimes.
There is no way, no way in any way to bring someone back from the dead or to compensate a dead person for the wrong doing.
I do recoil in horror from the thought of imprisoning an innocent man. I do. So stop putting words into my mouth. But there is at least some means of compensating said person, should we ever find out that he was indeed innocent (before his natural death) and the innocent person has a chance to fight for his right as long as he lives.
A dead person naturally cant do any of these things.
I think that we can also agree that being alive in prison is preferable to being dead. Having experienced death even though only briefly, I can state that pretty much anything is better than being dead.