Maybe It's Time To Rethink Drug Laws

[Jccarlton]

From AEI:
http://www.aei-ideas.org/2012/10/docume ... ow-motion/

[Diogenes]

From AEI:
http://www.aei-ideas.org/2012/10/docume ... ow-motion/

Yeah, but the Libertarians are the ones that need to do the rethinking. Drug laws are a load bearing component of our existing social structure. We saw what happened when China was forced to cut that load bearing cable. They had a holocaust in slow motion followed by a holocaust in fast motion.

[ScottL]

Instead of wasting vast amounts of federal and state money on this "war," let society handle it. They successfully stigmatized tobacco with movements like Truth, I'm 100% sure they can do the same with drugs. Of course you'll always have the outliers, but they'll be so insignificant, it won't matter.

[Diogenes]

Instead of wasting vast amounts of federal and state money on this "war," let society handle it. They successfully stigmatized tobacco with movements like Truth, I'm 100% sure they can do the same with drugs. Of course you'll always have the outliers, but they'll be so insignificant, it won't matter.

The legal system is an extension of a society's will.


Beyond that, do you have any personal experience with drug users?One of my friends was shot and killed last week.He simply could not stay away from crack. Once a person is addicted to that stuff, they cannot help themselves. They will seek it out and chase after it, regardless of the risk or danger. Social pressure does not even register with an addict.

Your suggestion that we let social pressure handle it is as effective as using an umbrella to slow yourself in free-fall. It is ridiculously inadequate.



My argument is that the 25 billion we spend per year on the drug war (Obama's vacations have cost us 2 billion) is simply the cost for indulging drug usage at the current level. To actually win the war would require consequences greater than what our society would tolerate, such as executing drug suppliers and even drug users.

You will never wipe out any disease as long as you tolerate it's spread. Whooping cough and Polio are now making a come back because we did not wipe them out.

[ScottL]

I disagree.

[choff]

Basically the drug culture is a pyramid, with a small number of extremely wealthy money laundering bankers and corrupt politians at the very top, and a large base of low level users on the bottom. Current efforts are focused entirely on cycling the base through the legal system, solutionwise a more practical approach would be to attack the pyramid from the top down. People on the bottom are expendable and replaceable, kill the head and the body dies.

[Diogenes]

Basically the drug culture is a pyramid, with a small number of extremely wealthy money laundering bankers and corrupt politians at the very top, and a large base of low level users on the bottom. Current efforts are focused entirely on cycling the base through the legal system, solutionwise a more practical approach would be to attack the pyramid from the top down. People on the bottom are expendable and replaceable, kill the head and the body dies.

It is an apt analogy in the respect that it shows importance, but it is not an apt analogy in demonstrating the difficulty of getting at the top. A closer analogy would be to that of a General with an officer corp of professionals, commanding a mercenary army. It's pretty hard to get at the top guys without going through the entire mass of ranks.

I think killing the officers in this war is the only method by which it can be won, but I think our side has no stomach for killing the opposition officers. Vietnam is an apt comparison. There too did we refuse to go in for the kill, and instead tolerated and indulged a dedicated enemy to persist.

[choff]

In this case the top enemy generals and officers can be found in the most expensive zip code in the US and The City. Think HSBC, which was quite openly founded to finance the opium trade. What's lacking is the political will to kick in their doors at 3am.

Maybe if the bottom ranks of law enforcement organize a revolt against the top ranks that protect these crooks justice will finally be done. Eventually, things will get so bad they'll be left with no other choice. The legalization fantacy will play out first before reverting to an even more corrupt and oppressive drug war. Then either low level law enforcement revolts or gets crushed.

[Stubby]

Basically the drug culture is a pyramid, with a small number of extremely wealthy money laundering bankers and corrupt politians at the very top, and a large base of low level users on the bottom. Current efforts are focused entirely on cycling the base through the legal system, solutionwise a more practical approach would be to attack the pyramid from the top down. People on the bottom are expendable and replaceable, kill the head and the body dies.

It is an apt analogy in the respect that it shows importance, but it is not an apt analogy in demonstrating the difficulty of getting at the top. A closer analogy would be to that of a General with an officer corp of professionals, commanding a mercenary army. It's pretty hard to get at the top guys without going through the entire mass of ranks.

I think killing the officers in this war is the only method by which it can be won, but I think our side has no stomach for killing the opposition officers. Vietnam is an apt comparison. There too did we refuse to go in for the kill, and instead tolerated and indulged a dedicated enemy to persist.

Really? REALLY?

You want to have executions without trial? How very contemporary American of you. Any else you want to bring back from the Dark Ages?

There is NEVER going to be enough money to go through the ranks to reach the top either so you are pretty well f%cked aren't you? Hell there will NEVER be enough spaces in your penal system.

OOO I know: automatic death penalty for anything to do with drugs.

[rj40]

Diogenes, I think the 2 billion dollar cost has been debunked.

Stubb-meister, I wouldn't get too upset. You won't change many minds here, but you can learn some other points of view. Usually a good thing. Celebrate diversity and all. Then you will be armed to address this where it counts - persuading voters and young folks. You will know how the other side thinks and can better counter it.

[Diogenes]

In this case the top enemy generals and officers can be found in the most expensive zip code in the US and The City. Think HSBC, which was quite openly founded to finance the opium trade. What's lacking is the political will to kick in their doors at 3am.

Maybe if the bottom ranks of law enforcement organize a revolt against the top ranks that protect these crooks justice will finally be done. Eventually, things will get so bad they'll be left with no other choice. The legalization fantacy will play out first before reverting to an even more corrupt and oppressive drug war. Then either low level law enforcement revolts or gets crushed.

You are arguing that some very wealthy and powerful people in the US are the real culprits behind the drug trade. I have heard this theory before, and it is a reasonable thing to wonder about. The Kennedy Clan got their fortune engaging in the ethical equivalent of drug dealing, (doubtlessly there were others) so there is a precedent for it.

However, if it were provable, they would be vulnerable. If there are such connections that lead back to the U.S., they are very well obscured by the apparatus they have in place. Either that, or the tracking dogs have been trained to heel when they get too close.

There is a lot going on in this country which is not in the best interests of the nation, and much of it is driven by social and economic cliques (the Aristocracy if you will) that have little if any interaction with we hoi poloi.


RHIP apparently.

[Diogenes]

Diogenes, I think the 2 billion dollar cost has been debunked.

Has it? I had not heard. What is the actual number?

When I posted that, I wasn't really looking for the 2billion number for the Indian Vacation. I had just read (a few days earlier) that the Obama family was costing taxpayers 1.4 Billion per year, but I couldn't find it on a quick google search. I found the 2 billion vacation thing, which I had forgotten about, so I decided to use that example instead of the one I actually wanted.

Since the topic was broached, I decided to spend a little extra effort to find the story I read a few days ago. Here it is. 1.4 billion to keep the Obama's in Kobe beef.

The only criticism I have regarding this story is that they didn't give figures for Bush with which to compare them. They used the Royal Family of England ( $57.8 million per year) instead.

So our current President costs more than 20 times the Royal Family of England? Egad!

Stubb-meister, I wouldn't get too upset. You won't change many minds here, but you can learn some other points of view. Usually a good thing. Celebrate diversity and all. Then you will be armed to address this where it counts - persuading voters and young folks. You will know how the other side thinks and can better counter it.

Good advice. This is the internet after all, and if you're going to get worked up about the stuff people say on the internet, you're doing it wrong.

[Diogenes]

Basically the drug culture is a pyramid, with a small number of extremely wealthy money laundering bankers and corrupt politians at the very top, and a large base of low level users on the bottom. Current efforts are focused entirely on cycling the base through the legal system, solutionwise a more practical approach would be to attack the pyramid from the top down. People on the bottom are expendable and replaceable, kill the head and the body dies.

It is an apt analogy in the respect that it shows importance, but it is not an apt analogy in demonstrating the difficulty of getting at the top. A closer analogy would be to that of a General with an officer corp of professionals, commanding a mercenary army. It's pretty hard to get at the top guys without going through the entire mass of ranks.

I think killing the officers in this war is the only method by which it can be won, but I think our side has no stomach for killing the opposition officers. Vietnam is an apt comparison. There too did we refuse to go in for the kill, and instead tolerated and indulged a dedicated enemy to persist.

Really? REALLY?

You want to have executions with trial? How very contemporary American of you. Any else you want to bring back from the Dark Ages?

There is NEVER going to be enough money to go through the ranks to reach the top either so you are pretty well f%cked aren't you? Hell there will NEVER be enough spaces in your penal system.

OOO I know: automatic death penalty for anything to do with drugs.

Go smoke your weed dude.

[Stubby]

never used illicit drugs in my life.
nice presumption

[choff]

I didn't mean execute, I meant prosecute, and there's more than one kind of revolt. With the advances in social media it's going to become more and more difficult for the top echelons of the drug trade to hide the crime.

It's going to become even more difficult for the lower echelons of law enforcement to pretend too the upper echelons of law enforcement they don't know what's going on, and vice versa. At some point it's all very public and something has to give.

There are enough jails to throw the top echelons of the drug trade, banksters and bent politicians, they just have to release a few of the people doing time for minor drug offences.

As to legalization, they're having enough problems with Viagra and tobacco smuggling, including the counterfeit variety, and these are legal drugs. Make a few more prohibited substances legal and the problem doesn't go away by any means.

Want to see Scopolamine legal, I can see it becoming very popular with teenage boys trying to get that first date.