Also I'm skeptical about the other drug laws

[MSimon]

From: http://blogs.lawyers.com/2012/09/respec ... marijuana/

Richard A. Posner, a widely respected federal judge, called for the
elimination of criminal laws against marijuana in a September 6
lecture at Elmhurst College in Illinois.

Judge Posner, a member of the influential United States Court of
Appeals for the Seventh Circuit in Chicago, is an intellectual giant
who is the most-cited judge in America. His call for legalization is
significant because Posner is considered a legal conservative.

In his introduction of Posner, Judge William J. Bauer, his colleague
on the 7th Circuit, called him "a genius." Posner has written
hundreds of court opinions and 40 books on many topics. Law schools
have classes devoted to his legal rulings. He attended Yale College,
was valedictorian when he graduated from Harvard Law School and
started his legal career as a clerk for the Supreme Court of the
United States.

"But also I'm skeptical about the other drug laws," Judge Posner
added. "The notion of using the criminal law as the primary means of
dealing with a problem of addiction, of misuse, of ingesting dangerous
drugs - I don't think that's sensible at all."

[paperburn1]

From: http://blogs.lawyers.com/2012/09/respec ... marijuana/

Richard A. Posner, a widely respected federal judge, called for the
elimination of criminal laws against marijuana in a September 6
lecture at Elmhurst College in Illinois.

Judge Posner, a member of the influential United States Court of
Appeals for the Seventh Circuit in Chicago, is an intellectual giant
who is the most-cited judge in America. His call for legalization is
significant because Posner is considered a legal conservative.

In his introduction of Posner, Judge William J. Bauer, his colleague
on the 7th Circuit, called him "a genius." Posner has written
hundreds of court opinions and 40 books on many topics. Law schools
have classes devoted to his legal rulings. He attended Yale College,
was valedictorian when he graduated from Harvard Law School and
started his legal career as a clerk for the Supreme Court of the
United States.

"But also I'm skeptical about the other drug laws," Judge Posner
added. "The notion of using the criminal law as the primary means of
dealing with a problem of addiction, of misuse, of ingesting dangerous
drugs - I don't think that's sensible at all."

I know the man in the above statements and he is not pro drug. His rational is enforcement does not justified by cost . He states "As a judge sworn to enforce the law, I will continue as I always have to adjudicate drug cases without any hesitations based on my reservations about the wisdom of the war on drugs. That is a legislative issue."
"A third possibility, however, is that he reduces his consumption enough to have money left over but he uses it to buy a legal mind-altering drug, such as liquor. This seems in fact the likeliest response of someone who desires a certain level of mood alteration and faces a higher price for his drug of choice; he switches to a substitute that now costs him less because it is not burdened by costs imposed by law enforcement. If that is the principal consequence of the war on drugs, it is hard to see what is gained even if one embraces the paternalistic rationale of the war


Personally I believe we are in a nanny state and if some wishes to waste their time with drugs is should be permitted. But on the same token if by usage on your part making you not a responsible member of society you may not take from the benefits of society. But of course I also believe that we should bring back the legal term outlaw and the benefits that come from that as well.

[choff]

Here's a reason to be skeptical on drug war reporting.

http://www.madcowprod.com/2012/09/05/na ... #more-1895

[MSimon]

Personally I believe we are in a nanny state and if some wishes to waste their time with drugs is should be permitted. But on the same token if by usage on your part making you not a responsible member of society you may not take from the benefits of society.

Alcoholics are our biggest problem. I was one at age 16 - severe abuse from my dad. PTSD.

If we are really concerned about "drugs" and "abusers" we would do something about PTSD. But there is no glamor in that. Piles of pot on the table. Piles of guns. Piles of money. Now there is a photo op. And you cant take that to the bank. The DEA does.

[ladajo]

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/09/04/ne ... =obnetwork

Obviously, this was because his father treated the attacker poorly, and we should give him a hug and forgiveness for slashing the throats of two children. And surely, drugs like PCP and Pot have no relation to violent behavior.

Yep, let's legalize it all. Surely things will be better.

I have no issues with roasting this ass alive. Slowly. While pouring lemon juice on him. And pulling out his nails periodically with pliers. And water boarding him during the process. And then smashing each digit joint with a hammer, one by one, 5 minutes apart. And then each gonad.
A quick death is wrong. He needs to suffer. Long and hard. And then die.

But maybe we should dope him up with wet, and let him loose in a few "legalization" households first. Wht do you think Simon, would he be kind to your wife while whacked out on wet and armed with a knife?

The kid was 6 and defending his sister. He died not knowing if he was successful in protecting her.

[MSimon]

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/09/04/ne ... =obnetwork

Obviously, this was because his father treated the attacker poorly, and we should give him a hug and forgiveness for slashing the throats of two children. And surely, drugs like PCP and Pot have no relation to violent behavior.

Yep, let's legalize it all. Surely things will be better.

I have no issues with roasting this ass alive. Slowly. While pouring lemon juice on him. And pulling out his nails periodically with pliers. And water boarding him during the process. And then smashing each digit joint with a hammer, one by one, 5 minutes apart. And then each gonad.
A quick death is wrong. He needs to suffer. Long and hard. And then die.

But maybe we should dope him up with wet, and let him loose in a few "legalization" households first. Wht do you think Simon, would he be kind to your wife while whacked out on wet and armed with a knife?

The kid was 6 and defending his sister. He died not knowing if he was successful in protecting her.

Pot has no relation to violent behavior except for prohibition. In fact the only drug proven to have a statistical relation to violence is alcohol. I believe we can solve that problem with alcohol prohibition - i.e. if only criminals distribute drugs violence will go down. Well some people believe that. Are you one of them?

Now look at this logically - if your brain is not too fogged by just the thought of drugs. The only choice we have is who distributes the drugs. Prohibition does not mean unavailable - it means distributed by criminals. Now is criminal distribution more likely to control the flows or can legal distribution do a better job. Nothing can do a perfect job. Nothing.

Kids will get drugs if they want them. Now the question is - does criminal distribution make that easier? Hint. It is easier for kids to get illegal drugs than legal beer. And they learn disrespect for government in the process. What is not to like about our current situation?

I must admit though that drugs are very powerful. Extremely powerful. They have unimaginable power. Just the thought of them makes some people terminally stupid. Amazing stuff them drugs.

[tomclarke]

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/09/04/ne ... =obnetwork

Obviously, this was because his father treated the attacker poorly, and we should give him a hug and forgiveness for slashing the throats of two children. And surely, drugs like PCP and Pot have no relation to violent behavior.

Yep, let's legalize it all. Surely things will be better.

I have no issues with roasting this ass alive. Slowly. While pouring lemon juice on him. And pulling out his nails periodically with pliers. And water boarding him during the process. And then smashing each digit joint with a hammer, one by one, 5 minutes apart. And then each gonad.
A quick death is wrong. He needs to suffer. Long and hard. And then die.

But maybe we should dope him up with wet, and let him loose in a few "legalization" households first. Wht do you think Simon, would he be kind to your wife while whacked out on wet and armed with a knife?

The kid was 6 and defending his sister. He died not knowing if he was successful in protecting her.

Pot has no relation to violent behavior except for prohibition. In fact the only drug proven to have a statistical relation to violence is alcohol. I believe we can solve that problem with alcohol prohibition - i.e. if only criminals distribute drugs violence will go down. Well some people believe that. Are you one of them?

Now look at this logically - if your brain is not too fogged by just the thought of drugs. The only choice we have is who distributes the drugs. Prohibition does not mean unavailable - it means distributed by criminals. Now is criminal distribution more likely to control the flows or can legal distribution do a better job. Nothing can do a perfect job. Nothing.

Kids will get drugs if they want them. Now the question is - does criminal distribution make that easier? Hint. It is easier for kids to get illegal drugs than legal beer. And they learn disrespect for government in the process. What is not to like about our current situation?

I must admit though that drugs are very powerful. Extremely powerful. They have unimaginable power. Just the thought of them makes some people terminally stupid. Amazing stuff them drugs.

The alcohol vs pot argument misses that we would prohibit alcohol if we could. Everyone would be better off without it. But it is enmeshed in our culture and given that there is no way short of transplanting a child colony to mars it can be prohibitted. It is easy to make and people will just do this.

Drugs not widely part of our culture are different, prohibition does greatly reduce consumption.

[MSimon]

The alcohol vs pot argument misses that we would prohibit alcohol if we could. Everyone would be better off without it. But it is enmeshed in our culture and given that there is no way short of transplanting a child colony to mars it can be prohibitted. It is easy to make and people will just do this.

Drugs not widely part of our culture are different, prohibition does greatly reduce consumption.

The history of prohibitions is this - about 50 years from widespread use to legalization.

So let us do the numbers 1970 +50 = 2020. Time's about up.

This was telling: "we would prohibit alcohol if we could" - well you can prohibit it. It is just that the cure is worse than the disease. To control people's non-violent private behavior you need a police state. A lot of folks (older) seem content with that. The kids hate it. Which is why they are tending libertarian. Every bad policy bears the seeds of its own destruction.

[ladajo]

I like how you have continued to ignore the recent long term study which indicates the continued use of pot can make you lose about 10 IQ points.

Or maybe your loss of IQ points has reduced your ability to think objectively. Or read.

So let us step back to reality. Guy whacked out on "Wet" (which has pot), takes knife, enters someone else's home uninvited, and kills a 6 year old, and almost kills (if it weren't for the 6 year old) the older sister by hacking open their necks.

What was he thinking? Why did he do it? Oh, he has no idea, he was out of his mind on drugs.

Please do not let fact nor reality interrupt your argument. Smoke another joint, and try to think it through again if you can.

[MSimon]

I like how you have continued to ignore the recent long term study which indicates the continued use of pot can make you lose about 10 IQ points.

Or maybe your loss of IQ points has reduced your ability to think objectively. Or read.

So let us step back to reality. Guy whacked out on "Wet" (which has pot), takes knife, enters someone else's home uninvited, and kills a 6 year old, and almost kills (if it weren't for the 6 year old) the older sister by hacking open their necks.

What was he thinking? Why did he do it? Oh, he has no idea, he was out of his mind on drugs.

Please do not let fact nor reality interrupt your argument. Smoke another joint, and try to think it through again if you can.

Please explain Carl Sagan. I have yet to hear some one claim his smoking made him dumber. I'd like to see the study. They are usually flawed in some serious way. But I have to admit I haven't been keeping up on the subject lately. Been busy designing. I intend to start another revolution.

We do know that a significant number of long term users have PTSD problems. Does PTSD cause intelligence problems? Was the study corrected for that?

[MSimon]

Ah. I saw a report on the study - there was no correction for a reversion to the mean. Or PTSD.

Here is what we know. Head start and other early education programs can raise birth IQ scores. once puberty kicks in there is a reversion to the mean.

But I get your point. Funny thing is that prohibition is a vector for spreading drug use. Western countries that legalized use have seen significant drops in youth (the people who use the most) drug use.

So let me ask you a question. Why do you want more teen drug use? If pot does lower IQ why do you favor a system that increases youthful use? You like stupid kids?

Funny how fear works. It makes you promote the very thing you fear.

[MSimon]

We are fortunate to have a youthful cohort who have grown up in a drug culture. They do not fear what they are used to.

BTW long term users tend to be polydrug users. Alcohol being the most likely substitute. Was the study corrected for alcohol use which is known to lower IQ?

Anti-depressants like marijuana and other legal anti-depressants grow brain cells. Alcohol is known to kill them.

Well anyway it looks like Colorado is going to legalize in November. Prohibition is the worst possible way to control drugs. Because it doesn't. Criminals will sell to anyone.

[ladajo]

Micheal,
I have never said I agree with the current methodology for control. I have stated many times it is not working. That said, I also maintain that free access is idiotic.

[MSimon]

Micheal,
I have never said I agree with the current methodology for control. I have stated many times it is not working. That said, I also maintain that free access is idiotic.

The current method of "control" is nothing but free access.

I liked this comment from: http://www.cbsnews.com/8601-504763_162- ... entWrapper

Skimming over the paper and its supplements, it appears that some kind of statistically significant effect has been documented. It would be nice to have seen a breakdown of amount of cannabis used or frequency of use to see if there was any "dose dependency" to the effect shown. That is a basic piece needed even in association studies that this study did not do. Also, the attempt to control for other variables did not seem very strong. First, it was strictly based on self-report (even though the cognitive findings were bolstered by statements for close contacts). Second, there was only talk about alcohol dependence, not about binge patterns, which have also been shown to be neurotoxic. Schizophrenia was considered, but what about other mental illnesses such as major depression, anxiety, PTSD, etc., all of which can reduce performance on neurocognitive tests. There was no consideration for traumatic brain injuries such as concussions, etc., which can reduce cognitive performance. And certainly, there is no neuroimaging data or any other attempt to present any physiological/neurochemical/anatomical correlates to what was seen.

So, yes, there's an association, but it is hard to say what actually has caused it.

========

So you have to ask yourself is marijuana the cause of the lowered brain function or an attempt at self medication for brain problems? It would be nice if OFs looked at these "studies" with scepticism. As they would with physics reports. Rider say.

Faith makes believers out of a lot of people who are quite good in other realms. As I said above. The mere mention of dope seems to have the power to make people stupid. Which means I have been consistently lowering the IQs of a significant fraction of the commenters here. My condolences.

[choff]

I really don't think legalizing PCP would be a good idea, especially since it could be used with other drugs, deliberate or accidental. Whatever else you want to legalize, this ain't it, the stories you get after the homicidal incidents are users who don't know where all that blood covering them came from.