Has Wiffleball Been Created Ever?

[Robthebob]

Without much arguing of science and whatever, these are the facts:

-EMC2's boss, the Navy, whom keeps the company on a rather short leash, asks for progress reports every so often.
-After the progress reports, they found external experts to learn and examine WB8, those experts (whose names are not publicly released, because seriously, it's none of your business what their names are) learns the theory and looks at the experimental results, tells the Navy that everything is A-OK.
-The progress report said they're doing high beta conditions.
-The external experts evaluation said theory and experimental results checks out.

From these facts, here are some possibilities:
1. EMC2 completely falsified all experimental data, to the point where the external experts would deliver a good verdict for them, and lied on progress reports to their boss in order to risk getting sued by the government, face other penalties, etc in order to get a rather bad amount of funding, on a yearly basis (I spoke to Dr. Gilmore, and he said EMC2 cant have anymore students, because they get funded on a yearly basis, living in the lap of luxury)
2. Or worse, EMC2, the external experts, and/or the Navy are all in it together to fabricate the illusion that they're making polywell fusion progress, this lie extended all the way back to Bussard, we have a former employee of Bussard on this forum, Tom Ligon, and he's in on it too, even Park and Nebel, who left their jobs at a government lab to assist on this lie. (while a bit excessive, it's the only way for this possibility to work, because apparently the data checks out with the theory from the good old days, the whole thing has to be all a lie)
3. or everyone's doing their job, and they dont want you, yes, especially you, Joe, to know about their results, because guess what? They're a private company, they aint gotta release shit to you. No seriously though, everyone's just doing their job, and that's it.

Here you have two ways of arguing.

You can argue by theory, which we will point to the above publicly released information and the most obvious and evident implication of those released information. People already argued by theory, by the panel that got the company their funding back in the first place, and by another panel (maybe they're the same people as the first panel, I dont know) last yearish mentioned in the J&A. They already did what you're trying to do, and they already came to the stated conclusion. Not everyone needs to go prove the physics and science of a topic for the topic to be true.

Or you can argue by saying there's no publicly released data and explicitly stated conclusions of WB effect, so we cant see for ourselves, but then we'll just say, logically and obviously, that absence of publicly released data and explicitly stated conclusions of WB effect does not equate to evidence that WB effect doesnt occur, by a very very very long shot. At best, you can only come to the conclusion of I dont know either way, which is the conclusion you'll logically arrive at if there was no evidence in existence, which is false, the evidence is just not publicly released.

Pick 1 of the 2 and be done with it. If you're tired of arguing with us, You have no idea how tired we are of baby sitting you.

[Aero]

they found external experts to learn and examine WB8, those experts ...

What is your evidence that they examined WB8, as opposed to examining WB7, which we know for sure that they did?

And does it make any difference?

[seedload]

Without much arguing of science and whatever, these are the facts:

-EMC2's boss, the Navy, whom keeps the company on a rather short leash, asks for progress reports every so often.
-After the progress reports, they found external experts to learn and examine WB8, those experts (whose names are not publicly released, because seriously, it's none of your business what their names are) learns the theory and looks at the experimental results, tells the Navy that everything is A-OK.
-The progress report said they're doing high beta conditions.
-The external experts evaluation said theory and experimental results checks out.

From these facts, here are some possibilities:
1. EMC2 completely falsified all experimental data, to the point where the external experts would deliver a good verdict for them, and lied on progress reports to their boss in order to risk getting sued by the government, face other penalties, etc in order to get a rather bad amount of funding, on a yearly basis (I spoke to Dr. Gilmore, and he said EMC2 cant have anymore students, because they get funded on a yearly basis, living in the lap of luxury)
2. Or worse, EMC2, the external experts, and/or the Navy are all in it together to fabricate the illusion that they're making polywell fusion progress, this lie extended all the way back to Bussard, we have a former employee of Bussard on this forum, Tom Ligon, and he's in on it too, even Park and Nebel, who left their jobs at a government lab to assist on this lie. (while a bit excessive, it's the only way for this possibility to work, because apparently the data checks out with the theory from the good old days, the whole thing has to be all a lie)
3. or everyone's doing their job, and they dont want you, yes, especially you, Joe, to know about their results, because guess what? They're a private company, they aint gotta release shit to you. No seriously though, everyone's just doing their job, and that's it.

Here you have two ways of arguing.

You can argue by theory, which we will point to the above publicly released information and the most obvious and evident implication of those released information. People already argued by theory, by the panel that got the company their funding back in the first place, and by another panel (maybe they're the same people as the first panel, I dont know) last yearish mentioned in the J&A. They already did what you're trying to do, and they already came to the stated conclusion. Not everyone needs to go prove the physics and science of a topic for the topic to be true.

Or you can argue by saying there's no publicly released data and explicitly stated conclusions of WB effect, so we cant see for ourselves, but then we'll just say, logically and obviously, that absence of publicly released data and explicitly stated conclusions of WB effect does not equate to evidence that WB effect doesnt occur, by a very very very long shot. At best, you can only come to the conclusion of I dont know either way, which is the conclusion you'll logically arrive at if there was no evidence in existence, which is false, the evidence is just not publicly released.

Pick 1 of the 2 and be done with it. If you're tired of arguing with us, You have no idea how tired we are of baby sitting you.

I pick:

(3) The results are nuanced. Interesting enough for additional funding but not conclusive one way or the other.

[Joseph Chikva]

If you're tired of arguing with us, You have no idea how tired we are of baby sitting you.

Baby sitting me?
I tired to explain you again and again the same and very basic things. And you at least do not seem so tired if write so long texts.

[Robthebob]

they found external experts to learn and examine WB8, those experts ...

What is your evidence that they examined WB8, as opposed to examining WB7, which we know for sure that they did?

And does it make any difference?

the J&A says experimental results up to date, not that it matters, in my opinion.

I pick:

(3) The results are nuanced. Interesting enough for additional funding but not conclusive one way or the other.

I would agree with you if it was just the Navy throwing more money into the project; indeed that would say just about nothing on the subject of the degree of success or failure of the project. On the other hand, according to various publicly released statements made by guys that are in charge or were in charge of emc2, couple with the J&A, I think it's actually delusional if one were to conclude that theres nothing conclusive about the project.

At the very least, and this is the very least, it's safe to assume the project is making good progress. While I understand people have this, be wrong until proven right attitude, this whole "it's not over until the fat lady sings." I think it's at least slightly counter productive, because it's very evident that should the heads of emc2 not make those statements, and the there was a released statement putting polywell in the negative, we would pretty much assume that the project is dead.

If that's the case, I feel we're not consistent with our gut feelings. That's no way to be thinker and a scientist. We shouldnt have this wrong until proven right attitude, we should have a neutral attitude.

[Robthebob]

If you're tired of arguing with us, You have no idea how tired we are of baby sitting you.

Baby sitting me?
I tired to explain you again and again the same and very basic things. And you at least do not seem so tired if write so long texts.

Oh? You are not only wrong with most topics we try to explain to you about polywell, and you do not even attempt to consider those various concepts (not accept, just consider them).

Of all of our counter points, you change the topics to something else without acknowledging if you agree or disagree with our points, and then we gotta wild goose chase again.

If you wont listen to science, theories and concepts, then fine, I made it simpler for you. I evoke authority, which you seem to kinda agree with, at least the main stream plasma community. So I try my very professors, ones that are plasma physicists (you're not even one... but whatever), 1 of them is even on a DOE fusion energy board, and you still refuse to acknowledge anything your oppositions have to say.

It's insane. Then you evoke authority on DOE policies about toks to claim that is related to the validity of the approach, without understanding the history and tradition of toroidal magnetic confinement. What I thought is weird is when I evoke authority of DOE, my professor isnt good enough for you. When you evoke authority of DOE, it's somehow good enough for you. This is an inconsistency in argument, but I digress.

So okay, I'll evoke authority of magnetic confinement people, the ones you trust (they're the people on the panel that said the data agrees with the theory), and you posted some nonsense about how my posts are too long, and how you're explaining things to me.

This really is a triumph of human existence. The level of inconsistency and bad methodology of being a scientist, thinker, etc, is... amazing. I hope you remember your master piece artwork here on this forum, because I certainly wont.

By the way, how's toks plasma more stable than stellarator? Like this blew me away. The very point of research of CTH (look it up), is to combine elements of stellarator machine fields to help stop disruptions in toks, this group has been around for like at least 20 years. I did think that maybe toks had an edge due to H-mode, but it turns out stellarators can achieve H-mode, too.... lol.

I dont know, one day, after I'm done writing that book, I'll personally pay you a visit and provide you a copy, after all, you're one of the authors.

[KitemanSA]

Every time Joe looses an argument he tries to deflect with a "he-he". Count them up. He has lost a LOT of arguments.

Of course then a bit later he goes on as if he didn't learn anything from the prior discussions, which usually turns out to be the case, he didn't learn anything, and doesn't, and perhaps never will.

[choff]

I vaguely recall reading a long way back how the guys at EMC2 told Tom Ligon something like the well appeared to take place and was more bucket shaped.

[Joseph Chikva]

By the way, how's toks plasma more stable than stellarator?

Yes, my friend. Always from the beginning of toroidal fusion experiments TOKAMAKs provided better (longer) confinement vs. comparable size Stellarator. This was the reason why people in USA refused from Stellarators.

If you wont listen to science, theories and concepts,

I do not see science, theories and concepts in your long texts. As I said in what your professors are wrong.
"H-mode is not well understood" - they said. "For them H-mode is not well undesstood" - I said. As H-mode was first discovered 21 years old - this is time needed for pstdoc to become mature researcher. So, at least one generation of TOKAMAK researchers (many thousands people) undestands H-mode well. Unlike your professors regardles to their past merits.

"Current in TOKAMAKs is driven only inductivelly" - said your professors. I showed you the second way of current driving - beam driven current. So, if you really want to become plasma physicist you should stop to worship to idols. Read more yourself and think yourself.

Good luck.

[Joseph Chikva]

Every time Joe looses an argument he tries to deflect with a "he-he".

Polywell is NOT a typical magnetic trap (mirror machine) for electrons, it is a magnetic AMPLIFIER for electrons, the TRAP is the MaGrid CHARGE.

Do you know what is magnetic trap and what is amplifier? What is your amplifier amplifying?

[93143]

Electron density.

The magnetic confinement doesn't perfectly confine electrons. But the positively charged magnetic grid means that electrons escaping from the cusps don't get far; they return the same way they came.

The amplification factor is just the internal density of electrons divided by the external density. Wiffleball mode is supposed to improve this to levels that allow net power.

[Joseph Chikva]

The magnetic confinement doesn't perfectly confine electrons.

Dubious statement. As magnetic confinement confines all charged particles. Recall e.g. Penning trap.

But the positively charged magnetic grid means that electrons escaping from the cusps don't get far; they return the same way they came.

And? That is good for energy balance. As escaping particles brings energy. But for confinement it is all the same from where electron comes: returned electrons or injected. So, so more powerful electron gun also amplifying density?

I thought that Kiteman told about classical amplifying vacuum tube, in which electron density is modulated (and not amplified) by the signal applied in electron grid cathode circuit and we get amplified signal in cathode - anode circuit.

[93143]

The magnetic confinement doesn't perfectly confine electrons.

Dubious statement. As magnetic confinement confines all charged particles. Recall e.g. Penning trap.

We were talking about Polywell. Polywell's magnetic configuration has cusps. Anything with cusps is going to leak plasma of some kind. In Polywell's case, assuming the descriptions from Bussard et al. are first-order accurate, they mostly leak electrons. Even if Carlson is right, electrons and ions come out together.

Therefore the Polywell's magnetic confinement of electrons, considered in isolation, is not perfect.

...

Just about nothing in plasma physics is literally perfect, of course, but you know (you should know) what I mean.

[ladajo]

Dubious statement. As magnetic confinement confines all charged particles. Recall e.g. Penning trap.

Dubious statement Joe.

The point of Polywell is that it seeks to confine only electrons. You continue to miss this. It does not seek nor want to confine ions. It wants to attact them to the "Big Minus".

Say it slowly..."Eeeee-lleeeeck-trrrrooooooh-diiiiiiiinnnaaaaaa-mmmmmiiiiii-ck <pause> connnnn-fffiiiiiiiiii-nnnnnnnne-mmmmeeeennnnnnnnn-T."

Now try it quickly..."not-tokomak", and again....,"not-tokomak"

Get it?

By the way, I talked with my Russian colleagues about your methods this evening while having them over for a BBQ at my house. You are right. They do not like you. But do not worry. I do not think they will advocate another invasion. They no longer seem to think there is a point to do it.

[Joseph Chikva]

The point of Polywell is that it seeks to confine only electrons. You continue to miss this.

Magnetically. Repeat it slowly or quickly. On you choice. And magnetically regardless to the method how those electrons will be transported inside reaction zone: by electron gun or by attraction of positively charged body of magnet.

And it is indifferent for me do your friends love me or hate. Ask them what “po khui” means in Russian. I think that if they don't love, it from an inferiority complex for the reason that 5 million people played the leading role in the 220th million population country. I have a daughter in Russia and at least her mother loves me.