Of course considering the enormous amount of material and energy resources ultimately in space in the solar system alone(probably two or three orders of magnitude greater than earth)...that relative "trickle" could be huge. The lumber that new england provided that enabled the british navy to continue building ships after they had largely denuded the forest of britain & and also the cotton for the sails. The huge empire larger that the Romans that the Brits eventually founded. By the time of WWI how much of England & a large chunk of Europe were we feeding?.Tom Ligon wrote:Guys, let me let you in on the dirty little secret of space exploitation.
Yeah, most people on Earth will never go to space. Most people in Spain and England never came to the New World, either.
Yet the New World is populated with the descendants of people from places like Spain and England. How is that? Well, they're descended from the ones who did come.
Spain and England expected to profit greatly from the stuff sent back from the New World. How is that working out for them? The people who came found and created enormous wealth, but the mother countries only got a trickle of it. Most of it is still here. And most of of it will stay here.
The place it the thing of value. The ones who will benefit are the ones who grit their teeth, pay for the ticket, tolerate the gees, and go there. And that won't be most people. And most of the wealth they create will stay in space.
The gravity well is real enough ... it is the test to discriminate between the go-getters and the its-too-harders. Any great mystery that some of the people making things happen in space are people who recently created booming companies?
Wind Farms cause global warming
Imagine the crucible of brilliant people(vetted because of the initially high cost of going, either independently rich or smart/talented enough that someone else is willing to pay the freight) plus vast natural resources few rules/laws/regs getting in their way. And add to that vast amounts of money/capital fleeing earth's taxes and regulations (my bank of mars/luna idea). Like taking high yield seeds and placing them in very rich well watered soil with plenty of sun and waiting to see what happens.Tom Ligon wrote:Absolutely. A space economy may keep Earth alive and even thriving. But it will still be just a pitance of that full economy, and the real power and vitality of the human race will be in space.
I think the title of that story was "The Delicate Crunch of Marshmallows", Analog, February, 1995. That pretty much kicks off and drives my whole future history.williatw wrote:Imagine the crucible of brilliant people(vetted because of the initially high cost of going, either independently rich or smart/talented enough that someone else is willing to pay the freight) plus vast natural resources few rules/laws/regs getting in their way. And add to that vast amounts of money/capital fleeing earth's taxes and regulations (my bank of mars/luna idea). Like taking high yield seeds and placing them in very rich well watered soil with plenty of sun and waiting to see what happens.Tom Ligon wrote:Absolutely. A space economy may keep Earth alive and even thriving. But it will still be just a pitance of that full economy, and the real power and vitality of the human race will be in space.
In the asteroid belt, a bit further from the Sun, and with plenty of material for shielding.
And one other element: Frontier societies tend to have a deficit of women with respect to men. Men competing with each other for the fewer available women. What selection criteria will women use? Guessing time honored one of wealth/power success, a further spur to our brilliant men to work like SOB's. That the women themselves would work probably wouldn't change that much, women tend to marry at their relative social/economic status or above. I mean on earth how often to female doctors/business exec types marry male factory workers? They seem to be genetically/culturally programed to go for the best providers/highest status males they can get whether they need them to be or not.Tom Ligon wrote:I think the title of that story was "The Delicate Crunch of Marshmallows", Analog, February, 1995. That pretty much kicks off and drives my whole future history.williatw wrote:Imagine the crucible of brilliant people(vetted because of the initially high cost of going, either independently rich or smart/talented enough that someone else is willing to pay the freight) plus vast natural resources few rules/laws/regs getting in their way. And add to that vast amounts of money/capital fleeing earth's taxes and regulations (my bank of mars/luna idea). Like taking high yield seeds and placing them in very rich well watered soil with plenty of sun and waiting to see what happens.Tom Ligon wrote:Absolutely. A space economy may keep Earth alive and even thriving. But it will still be just a pitance of that full economy, and the real power and vitality of the human race will be in space.
In the asteroid belt, a bit further from the Sun, and with plenty of material for shielding.
I don't imagine a future space industry to be anything like people setting off for the new world. Living in space or on the moon/mars would suck with little promise that life would get substantially less sucky any time soon. The new world at least held promise of a great life.Tom Ligon wrote:Guys, let me let you in on the dirty little secret of space exploitation.
Yeah, most people on Earth will never go to space. Most people in Spain and England never came to the New World, either.
Yet the New World is populated with the descendants of people from places like Spain and England. How is that? Well, they're descended from the ones who did come.
Spain and England expected to profit greatly from the stuff sent back from the New World. How is that working out for them? The people who came found and created enormous wealth, but the mother countries only got a trickle of it. Most of it is still here. And most of of it will stay here.
The place it the thing of value. The ones who will benefit are the ones who grit their teeth, pay for the ticket, tolerate the gees, and go there. And that won't be most people. And most of the wealth they create will stay in space.
The gravity well is real enough ... it is the test to discriminate between the go-getters and the its-too-harders. Any great mystery that some of the people making things happen in space are people who recently created booming companies?
My picture is that a future space industry would be more like working on an oil rig than actually colonizing anything.
Stick the thing in a tub of water! Sheesh!
Accept for the possibility of getting rich...very rich that might make it less suck. The people trying to develop the abundant resources in space would need top talent to make it work. Only one way they would be able to get people like that to accept the life that would "suck", would be to make the ultimate compensation worth it. If you were a 26yr old MIT engineering master's degree grad, would you take a job that pays 3X times what any earthside job pays, plus the added benefit of low taxes chances for advancement etc?seedload wrote:I don't imagine a future space industry to be anything like people setting off for the new world. Living in space or on the moon/mars would suck with little promise that life would get substantially less sucky any time soon. The new world at least held promise of a great life.
My picture is that a future space industry would be more like working on an oil rig than actually colonizing anything.
The first generation would be living in tin cans for a while. Cramped, would smell constantly of dirty laundry, limited showers, crappy bathrooms. Picture living for years in a motor home.
Consider that talent and work ethic with nearly unlimited resources, and I do not believe it is correct to believe it would suck for very long. They would build whatever lives they damned well wanted, very noticably improved in a couple of decades.
Look up O'Neill colonies.
http://www.nss.org/settlement/space/oneillcylinder.htm
Consider that talent and work ethic with nearly unlimited resources, and I do not believe it is correct to believe it would suck for very long. They would build whatever lives they damned well wanted, very noticably improved in a couple of decades.
Look up O'Neill colonies.
http://www.nss.org/settlement/space/oneillcylinder.htm
I don't think it would take 20 years for a very noticable improvement. Maybe two years. If the employer doesn't spend some time up front improving living conditions, then the second commercial enterprise will hire away their people with the promise of improved living conditions.Tom Ligon wrote:The first generation would be living in tin cans for a while. Cramped, would smell constantly of dirty laundry, limited showers, crappy bathrooms. Picture living for years in a motor home.
Consider that talent and work ethic with nearly unlimited resources, and I do not believe it is correct to believe it would suck for very long. They would build whatever lives they damned well wanted, very noticably improved in a couple of decades.
Look up O'Neill colonies.
http://www.nss.org/settlement/space/oneillcylinder.htm
I expect that in 20 years, living conditions will be up to par with some of the better conditions on Earth. Their will be a lot of uncompensated work on improving living conditions but as long as there remains good production levels, I expect that the employer will look the other way. Afterall, improved company facilities/living spaces are in the company's best interest.
Aero
Not if I had to live the rest of my life in space or potentially raise my family in space with my children committed to living out their existence in cans, whether shopping mall sized or otherwise.williatw wrote:Accept for the possibility of getting rich...very rich that might make it less suck. The people trying to develop the abundant resources in space would need top talent to make it work. Only one way they would be able to get people like that to accept the life that would "suck", would be to make the ultimate compensation worth it. If you were a 26yr old MIT engineering master's degree grad, would you take a job that pays 3X times what any earthside job pays, plus the added benefit of low taxes chances for advancement etc?seedload wrote:I don't imagine a future space industry to be anything like people setting off for the new world. Living in space or on the moon/mars would suck with little promise that life would get substantially less sucky any time soon. The new world at least held promise of a great life.
My picture is that a future space industry would be more like working on an oil rig than actually colonizing anything.
That is why I used the oil rig analogy. Yes, I believe that I would work in space for years if I came back rich. But the coming back part is as integral to the answer as the being rich part.
Regards
Last edited by seedload on Tue May 15, 2012 5:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Stick the thing in a tub of water! Sheesh!
20 years to Rama seems unlikely to me.Tom Ligon wrote:They would build whatever lives they damned well wanted, very noticably improved in a couple of decades.
Look up O'Neill colonies.
http://www.nss.org/settlement/space/oneillcylinder.htm
Stick the thing in a tub of water! Sheesh!
Two to three generations to Rama, maybe.
Out of the Winnebago and into a double-wide much sooner. Significant improvement over misery. Luxury yet to come.
Splitting off some time to improve living conditions was a key conclusion of "Marshmallows". I put the crisis as an indistinct few years after setting up the facility. The improvements would be delayed more than two years by pestering for production from people who did not make the trip. But at some point the workforce goes on strike and does get the changes. The willingness to put up with crappy conditions longer than they ought to is part of that work ethic, but it has its limits.
If anybody wants a .pdf of the story, let me know.
Out of the Winnebago and into a double-wide much sooner. Significant improvement over misery. Luxury yet to come.
Splitting off some time to improve living conditions was a key conclusion of "Marshmallows". I put the crisis as an indistinct few years after setting up the facility. The improvements would be delayed more than two years by pestering for production from people who did not make the trip. But at some point the workforce goes on strike and does get the changes. The willingness to put up with crappy conditions longer than they ought to is part of that work ethic, but it has its limits.
If anybody wants a .pdf of the story, let me know.
Don't forget that the initial settlers from Europe had a very harsh time until they learned what did and didn't work well in the Americas. Things were easier in some ways because of the native populations (trade, training, etc) and space wouldn't have that, but being a pioneer from Europe to the Americas was a dangerous life choice, just like moving to space would be.
Even after the east coast was settled, things were very dangerous for moving west. My understanding is lots of people lost their lives without ever reaching the towns/cities they were trying to get to when traveling west. (Its been a while since I read about it, so I may be mis-remembering, however.)
Even after the east coast was settled, things were very dangerous for moving west. My understanding is lots of people lost their lives without ever reaching the towns/cities they were trying to get to when traveling west. (Its been a while since I read about it, so I may be mis-remembering, however.)