US Condemns Bomb Attack on Iran Nuclear Scientist

[Joseph Chikva]

His English (Murkin) is actually pretty dang good,

So, if English good he is right? And e.g. Rossi's followers speaking English well are right too.
What do you think about parallel's and Icarus's English?

May be because of my bad English I understand what they want to say. Israelis covering approach of infantry shot smoke shells. Some white phosphorous corpuscle from e.g. 10000 shells hit e.g. two men, one of them dead and second is

still suffering from skin diseases and burns

.

Every army has such smoke shells or mortar bombs in their inventory. And they used only for minimizing of infantry losses and not for killing of enemy.

As for killing of terrorists Israelis use guided weapon or tank shells or infantry weapon.
I have not heard for a long time when Israelis used last time dumb bombs. But most common are laser beam riding missiles launched from UAVs or helicopters.

So, that all is Iranian following propaganda shit in spite of quality of English.

[ladajo]

Young Lion,

More than 1,400 Palestinians were killed in the Israeli war against Gaza. Many are still suffering from skin diseases and burns caused by white phosphorus used during the Israeli war.

You have to smile. If they are dead, how are they suffering?

Oh, cut him a break. His English (Murkin) is actually pretty dang good, and you know as well as I do that there is an implicit "others" in the statement that you quote above:

More than 1,400 Palestinians were killed in the Israeli war against Gaza. Many others are still suffering from skin diseases and burns caused by white phosphorus used during the Israeli war.

I did mean it as a joke...

[Joseph Chikva]

Young Lion,
You have to smile. If they are dead, how are they suffering?

Oh, cut him a break. His English (Murkin) is actually pretty dang good, and you know as well as I do that there is an implicit "others" in the statement that you quote above:

More than 1,400 Palestinians were killed in the Israeli war against Gaza. Many others are still suffering from skin diseases and burns caused by white phosphorus used during the Israeli war.

I did mean it as a joke...

I like your another "joke". About Kitty Hawk that never been in Middle East.

[KitemanSA]

I did mean it as a joke...

And I was lightly pulling your leg, I did give a raspberry and a wink.

So, that all is Iranian following propaganda shit in spite of quality of English.

Wha??

e.g. 10000 shells hit e.g.two men, one of them dead and second is

still suffering from skin diseases and burns

Now who is the propagandist?

[Joseph Chikva]

e.g. 10000 shells hit e.g.two men, one of them dead and second is

still suffering from skin diseases and burns

Now who is the propagandist?

Mr. Kiteman, for your reference smoke artillery shells aren't intended for destruction of enemy but are intended only for covering of advance of own forces thus allowing them comparatively safe approach to enemy.
Yes white phosphorus can poison or put burns. But this occurs casually.
I am assured that if someone has suffered from such shells there are only several persons.

As probability of damage of any person is very low, from which probability of damage of friendly forces is even higher.

Additionally for your reference:
As the poisoning weapon the shells filled with white phosphorus would be less effective than zarin, zaman, v-gases, as well as the incendiary weapon phosphorus would be less effective than termite or napalm.

[KitemanSA]

Gaza War (2008–2009)
After initial denials,[21] the Israeli military later admitted using white phosphorus shells in the Gaza War,[22] which were fired from 155mm artillery guns. As The Times reported, the type of shell used was the US made M825A1.

This was not for "illumination" purposes as the US claimed in Faluja, this was anti-personnel usage, civilian personnel (belligerent civilians I will grant). One or two people? I strongly doubt it.

[Joseph Chikva]

Gaza War (2008–2009)
After initial denials,[21] the Israeli military later admitted using white phosphorus shells in the Gaza War,[22] which were fired from 155mm artillery guns. As The Times reported, the type of shell used was the US made M825A1.

This was not for "illumination" purposes as the US claimed in Faluja, this was anti-personnel usage, civilian personnel (belligerent civilians I will grant). One or two people? I strongly doubt it.

Those shells are not for illumination purposes. I have already told you for what they are intended: for screening of infantry advance. All the more in 2008-2009 all Israeli squads, platoons etc. were equipped with night vision. They need not illumination. On the contrary - darkness gives the some advantage.
But all weapons except sniper rifle have some collateral damage. I am sure that if Israelis would fire the same quantity of conventional HE or cluster 155mm shells, there would be on orders more deaths if some people have dead by smoke shells. 1 or 2 or 10. Recall that there was a war. And admit that Wiki article quite may be written by Arabs. Also recall that 155mm projectile weighs about 42 kg. Also be noted that as chemical weapon e.g. sarin would be more effective than white phosphorous. And as incidentiary – termite or zirconium powder. Termite bombs were used for example in WW2 by UK and USA air forces e.g. in Dresden.
Palestinians have tactic to shoot from the back of peace people. That is well known. Some deaths of civilians in such scenario are inevitable.

[ladajo]

I like this photo...



Frightening picture, but if the round had been a 107/795 or 449/483 I really doubt you would see anyone running away in the picture. More than likely you would see a bunch of folks not moving, or dragging themselves away in a blood trail.

In any event: If you want to know how the round is used, read the pub:

http://www.marines.mil/news/publication ... ations.pdf

Check out Appendix B, Page B-2 for basic description of 825's.

And then for employment, you need to search "smoke" throughout the pub. 825's are not intended nor ever described as anti-anything. It is not how they are used, and not what they are good at. Granted, if you pop one over a dense crowd, some folks will get hurt, but if you pop a standard frag round over the same place, you will hurt magnitudes more.
They are also not as good at starting fires as Incendary Rounds, go figure.

Understanding the rounds you are talking about helps:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... ns/155.htm

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... s/m825.htm

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... /smoke.htm

[Joseph Chikva]

I like this photo...

Napalm is more beautiful for seeing

Effects on people
When used as a part of an incendiary weapon, napalm can cause severe burns (ranging from superficial to subdermal) to the skin and body, asphyxiation, unconsciousness, and death. In this implementation, explosions can create an atmosphere of greater than 20% carbon monoxide[1] and firestorms with self-perpetuating windstorms of up to 70 miles per hour (110 km/h).[17][unreliable source?]

One of the main anti-personnel features of napalm is that it sticks to human skin, with no practical method for removal of the burning substance.[citation needed]

Napalm is effective against dug-in enemy personnel. The burning incendiary composition flows into foxholes, trenches and bunkers, and drainage and irrigation ditches and other improvised troop shelters. Even people in undamaged shelters can be killed by hyperthermia/heat stroke, radiant heat, dehydration, suffocation, smoke exposure, or carbon monoxide poisoning. The firebombing raids on German cities, e.g. Dresden and Hamburg, frequently caused death by this mechanism.[4]

One firebomb released from a low-flying plane can damage an area of 2,500 square yards (2,100 m2).

[KitemanSA]

I like this photo...
Check out Appendix B, Page B-2 for basic description of 825's.

And then for employment, you need to search "smoke" throughout the pub. 825's are not intended nor ever described as anti-anything. It is not how they are used, and not what they are good at. Granted, if you pop one over a dense crowd, some folks will get hurt, but if you pop a standard frag round over the same place, you will hurt magnitudes more.
They are also not as good at starting fires as Incendary Rounds, go figure.

The document states:

White Phosphorus Shell (M110 Series)This burster-type projectile is filled with white phosphorus (WP). On detonation, WP is expelled over a limited area. It is usually fuzed with PD fuzes M557 or M739. However, it can be fuzed with mechanical time (MT) fuzes M564 or M582 to produce an airburst. WP is used for marking, screening, obscuring, and incendiary effects. It is effective against vehicles, POL storage areas, etc.

So when the US uses them during war-time, this is how the US uses them. This does not in any way define how the Israelis use them.
Folks keep talking about how nice these are relative to frag or napalm or other intentionally lethal shells. If the Israelis used intentionally lethal shells, the world community would drop on them like a ton of brick. But no, they use "non-lethal" shells like this. Therefore, everything is ok, right?

Their "non-lethal" protestations doesn't obviate the effect of this stuff when used against civilians crowds.
I invite anyone who thinks this stuff is innocuous to stand beneath it when a dozen or more go off.

And no, Joe, teasing ladajo about his tease of Aslan, does NOT imply I agree with everything that Aslan says. Nor does it imply the right to make absurd statements (one dead, one injured) about things you seem to know little about. If I call you on your absurdity, this again DOES NOT IMPLY that I think Aslan is telling the pure untarnished "truth"; merely that I recognize your absurdity.

[ladajo]

Kite,
Then 110 series are used for spotting rounds, as well as incendiary. They were designed primarily PD fusing (Point Detonate). The 825's were designed for Airburst. They can be driven in as spotting rounds, but are not generally used as such. Folks tend to avoid incendiary in urban fights as it can get out of control and come back and bite you, not to mention it is against the law, and the longer term political risk. Smaller WP rounds are good to drive folks out of cover as they get brain freaked when they can see NOTHING. In the ME especially, there are culturally embedded 'concerns' about chemical weapons, and thus there is utility in leveraging that fear as well. The shake-n-bake techinique capitalized on mentally making them run for it, and then putting the smackdown with frag once they broke cover. There was a conscious avoidance of using submuntions to get at folks under cover due to dud-rate concerns and future blue movements.

WP is the best thing we have for smoke these days, and it is fantastic. If we want to burn stuff down, we have better things for that, but WP can be used in a pinch. Low altitude FAM's and of course napalm. But it should be noted that WP is not listed in the US inventory sorting as a an incendiary. That is a sub-use, just as it is for HE.

[Joseph Chikva]

Their "non-lethal" protestations doesn't obviate the effect of this stuff when used against civilians crowds.
I invite anyone who thinks this stuff is innocuous to stand beneath it when a dozen or more go off.

1. About smoke artillery shells let's say "less-lethal" and not "non-lethal". Though those shells are more close to "non". So, "almost non-lethal".
2. But Israel is involved in permanent war “for removing he from the map”. And in the war he uses quite 100% lethal assets. And has right to use. Regardless to any speculations and cries. But, yes, all those assets may do some collateral damage.
But also recall that percentage of guided weapon is very high in Israel army. So, collateral damage would be comparatively low.

I invite anyone who thinks this stuff is innocuous to stand beneath it when a dozen or more go off.

Thank you. Non-zero but close to zero probability of damage. At least less probability to be injured from these shells than from hostile fire. But those shells screen you from hostile fire. And maximum safety would be reached when you will be at maximum proximity to falling point (area).

[KitemanSA]

You two are still talking about the use of these items in a war-time situation against a rival army.

What happens when these are used to "disperse" a crowd? How much of that crowd is "acceptable collateral damage"? One dead and one injured? Seems some would think so. How bout if the numbers wee more like hundreds or thousands dead or injured?

I don't personanlly know what the real numbers are, but I doubt they are in the 1 range.

[ladajo]

Nobody uses 155mm Artillery for crowd control. Well, maybe only Libya, Syria...

I think what is being missed here is that when one party takes an action for a reason and effect, the other party or third parties can willfully or unintentionally ascribe another reason or effect to it.
In the case of Israel using smoke rounds, I am sure that there has been some spin. Just as there was during US use of smoke rounds in Iraq, and Afghanistan.

While a Policeman is standing on a street corner performing his routine beat, two criminals observe him, and one comments to the other, "I just know he is here looking for you...it can not be a coincidence...they know what is up..."

[Joseph Chikva]

What happens when these are used to "disperse" a crowd? How much of that crowd is "acceptable collateral damage"?

If even one from that crowd shoots - pardon all staying there. And Ladajo is right - 155mm artillery is not effective for this purpose.

What do you think about usage of bunker-buster bombs by USA army? They used such a bomb for killing Saddam having wrong prospecting data. Prospective bunker was under an apartment house. Has anybody counted collateral damage? Saddam has escaped that time. But people living in that house?

According to senior military officials, Saddam Hussein's Sons, and perhaps Saddam Hussein himself, were meeting in a Bunker Restaurant in the Al Mansour residential area of Southwest Baghdad, Iraq today at 3:00 AM in the morning, where they may have, along with 50 other Ba'ath Military leaders of the Iraqi Government, met their demise in the form of 4 Bunker Buster Bombs 2000 lbs. It is not known or may it ever be fully known exactly which leaders and which of the surviving Hussein regime family leadership were congregated. Even one of those bombs does not leave much behind. A huge crater is all that is left of the restaurant and the building behind it.

What do you talk about? Not about non-lethal shell intended for creating non-transparent cloud? And I am telling you bunker-building buster 1 tonn bomb.

Have personally you - sitizan of USA the right to accuse another country in murders if you do not accuse your own country for napalm or defoliants usage in Vietnam? Or nuclear bombs usage in Japan?