The War On People In Pain

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Diogenes
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Post by Diogenes »

ScottL wrote:By Diogenes logic, we should be prohibiting guns as well as they kill people. Perhaps we should prohibit cars because they contribute to 100% of all car accidents *gasp*. Or maybe the H2O Hoax is legit and should be prohibited? (Sarcasm)
That's a childish comparison. We need guns BECAUSE they kill people. If we didn't have guns, those that did would enslave us.

We can survive without alcohol, but we cannot survive without guns. If you are going to make a ridiculous comparison, your Dihydrogen Monoxide argument which kills 3,308 people per year is much better. On the other hand, we need that stuff too. :)

ScottL wrote: I don't trust too much of what Diogenes says these days. His methods are to recite the usual propaganda from the uninformed blogs that fit his specific view of the world.
You are just annoyed because when I say alcohol kills 11,000 people per year, I happen to be right. :P


ScottL wrote: I can't help but view him as a grumpy old white man too busy telling kids to get out of his lawn and retelling stories of the good'ol'days before any social equality movements. This is not to say that he is a grumpy old man, but that I have trouble picturing anything else.
I don't mind being pictured that way. When I was a child, I lectured grown ups, and now that I am a grown up I lecture "children"! :)

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‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

ScottL
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Post by ScottL »

The problem is that you think you're right and I think I'm right. At least we can disagree.

As for better comparisons, no problem. The sun is considered the cause of 2 million skin cancer diagnosises each year, perhaps we should blot it out through a prohibitive law.

As for alcohol, it reduces blood pressure and is recommended that a glass of wine a day will improve your overall health.

D Tibbets
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Post by D Tibbets »

choff wrote:
MSimon wrote:
choff wrote: http://www.theprovince.com/health/Medic ... story.html

A huge spike in arthritis cases amoung young people, either marijuana causes the illness or we've got a bunch of malingerers on our hands. Whatever happened to evelating your pain threshold, bunch of wussies.
I believe legalization is the cure for that disease.
I believe this shows that marijuana causes arthritis.
This article in no way implies that marijuana causes arthritis. All that can be said with some degree of certainty is either, it is useful for managing arthritis pain, and/ or it has become widely known that this complaint provides easy access to the drug- legitimate or otherwise.

Dan Tibbets
To error is human... and I'm very human.

ScottL
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Post by ScottL »

Children/Teens sitting front of their computers and texting is leading to an increase in arthritis, not marijuana.

KitemanSA
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Post by KitemanSA »

Diogenes wrote: Yes, that has worked out so well with alcohol. Instead of 7 people killed in Saint Valentines day massacres, we have 11,000 people killed every year in drunk driving accidents. That is MUCH better!
KitemanSA wrote: D, OMG!
If you really mean this, and it is not just a "stupid Diogenes trick", then you have lost all claim to respect in this discussion.
Diogenes wrote:Are you objecting to the numbers or the characterization of them?
The fact that you ask that with what appears to be a straight face tells me your thought processes are too faulty to comprehend, but on the off chance you are just playing the bozo...

The "stupid D trick" is the implied assertion that the SVDM was the sum total of the results of prohibition.

RIDICULOUS!!! Shameful even.

choff
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Post by choff »

D Tibbets wrote:
choff wrote:
MSimon wrote: I believe legalization is the cure for that disease.
I believe this shows that marijuana causes arthritis.
This article in no way implies that marijuana causes arthritis. All that can be said with some degree of certainty is either, it is useful for managing arthritis pain, and/ or it has become widely known that this complaint provides easy access to the drug- legitimate or otherwise.

Dan Tibbets
In all probability, most of the people responsible for the spike in arthritis numbers were casual, recreational pot smokers before their joints started hurting, as it were. Therefore, we can reasonably conclude that marijuana is responsible for their having arthritis.

But it doesn't stop there. A further analysis of health statistics will surely reveal a spike in cases of people with cancer, HIV, Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, Crohns disease, Herpes, diarhea, and last but certainly not least, psychosomatic illness.

All these people will be getting marijuana prescribed for their pain and anguish, and all will doubtless have been casual users before succumbing to said maladies.

We therefore can make the logical correlation that marijuana has played a definite role in people falling victim to all manner of illnesses, and that society has, as a sacred duty in protecting the health of its young people, the necessity to cease all medicial marijuana sales, with enhanced police roles in enforcing this ban.

Seriously though, it has been noted that child abuse is a self perpetuating problem, with abuse victims abusing their own children, usually after self medicating. This can be used to show that self medication aids in perpetuating the abuse cycle, and that logially, one way to break the cycle is to remove the self medication.
CHoff

Giorgio
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Re: The War On People In Pain

Post by Giorgio »

Diogenes wrote:
Giorgio wrote:
Diogenes wrote: You aren't understanding the point. When you have so many pill heads demanding drugs, it becomes impossible to tell who is fake and who is real.
Is not up to a doctor to take such a decisions. If someone in front of him is telling him that he is suffering, than his Hippocratic oath requires him to verify his conditions and treat him at the best of the medical knowledge.
By publicly stating that he refuses to treat such cases he is stopping in being a doctor and becoming a politician.

This is the first thing you've ever said that I consider nonsensical. Are you kidding me?
Nonsensical, why?
He took an oath, a very clear one and he should stick to it. Saying to someone that is suffering hell's pain "I don't cure you because many fake a disease just to get high on drugs", that is nonsensical.

My mother has 3 untreatable hernias that paralyzed her in a bed for good part of the previous 2 years. The only pain relief that was working was opium based but could not be prescribed to her case due to "war on drugs" laws.
To see her crying and saying that she was hoping to die than to endure for one more day the pain she was into, and knowing that a solution was available but she could not get it because "other use it to get high", well, THAT is nonsensical for me.

KitemanSA
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Re: The War On People In Pain

Post by KitemanSA »

Giorgio wrote: To see her crying and saying that she was hoping to die than to endure for one more day the pain she was into, and knowing that a solution was available but she could not get it because "other use it to get high", well, THAT is nonsensical for me.
It is more than nonsensical, it is evil. Those that promote the drug war are evil people who seek power.

Ok, I'll accept that some are just useful IDIOTS!

MSimon
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Re: The War On People In Pain

Post by MSimon »

KitemanSA wrote:
Giorgio wrote: To see her crying and saying that she was hoping to die than to endure for one more day the pain she was into, and knowing that a solution was available but she could not get it because "other use it to get high", well, THAT is nonsensical for me.
It is more than nonsensical, it is evil. Those that promote the drug war are evil people who seek power.

Ok, I'll accept that some are just useful IDIOTS!
Every single one of these cases creates dozens of new enemies of the drug war. Not just the people in pain but their friends and relatives too.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

D Tibbets
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Post by D Tibbets »

choff, your assumption that all marihuana proscription seekers were prior recreational users is completely unsupported by the article, or any casual knowledge. If you have further knowledge in this matter, please present it. And, even if this was true, you still have not established a causal relationship.

As far as doctors withholding narcotic pain medicine because of uncertainty about the validity of the pain complaints, or because of fear of retribution from Federal or state authorities, both occurs. No medicine is completely safe (as pointed out Sunlight and water are not completely safe) At some point a decision has to be made as per cost/ benefit considerations. This involves both medical and societal perspectives.

Dan Tibbets
To error is human... and I'm very human.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

This involves both medical and societal perspectives.
In a country that supports individual liberties only "medical" should be a consideration.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

Diogenes
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Post by Diogenes »

ScottL wrote:The problem is that you think you're right and I think I'm right. At least we can disagree.

As for better comparisons, no problem. The sun is considered the cause of 2 million skin cancer diagnosises each year, perhaps we should blot it out through a prohibitive law.

As for alcohol, it reduces blood pressure and is recommended that a glass of wine a day will improve your overall health.
I don't really have a problem with alcohol, but I do think people ought to face the truth about it's negative effects on some individuals and society. I don't care if people get blotto faced, as long as they are taking care of their responsibilities.

Yes, a glass or two of red wine daily is supposed to be good for you. I occasionally try to get my mother to drink some, (Louis Jadot Beaujolais-Villages ) but she is having none of it. For some reason she's afraid of becoming a "drunk."

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Of course I can see why she might have a dim view of Alcohol. Her father was a drunk (Half Cherokee) and he would crawl on his knees in front of her school while all the other children laughed at him. She was humiliated in front of her classmates on many occasions. Two of her brothers were killed by a drunk driver. (Who amazingly enough survived the deadly crash) Two others were badly injured in the same accident.

One of her brothers used to get drunk and beat up on his wife till one day he got drunk and his wife killed him with a shotgun. His first son died as a young boy. He was sickly and had medical problems. My mother blames it on his mother's drinking while pregnant, and on his father having given him beer and whiskey in his baby bottle to make him be quiet when he was an infant. His only surviving son, (my cousin) got drunk one night, and as a friend was driving him home, he refused to cooperate. Saying he wanted to go back to the bar and drink more, he opened the door of the vehicle traveling at highway speed, and fell out onto the highway hitting his head and killing himself. His Sister is the only surviving descendant from that part of the family. She doesn't drink.

One of her brothers that survived the car crash ended up drinking his life away. He died of Renal failure last year, no doubt due to the heavy damage his heavy drinking did to his liver and kidneys. He would drink a couple of fifths per day (He liked Captain Morgan's "Captain's Select". Good quality stuff.)

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Another of her brothers would get depressed when he drank, and one day shot himself to death. I found his suicide note while cleaning out my Uncle's house after he died last year.


My Mother's Husband, (my father whom i've never met) would get drunk and not work, preferring to spend his time at the bar, leaving my mother to fend for her kids until she was no longer able, eventually putting us children into an adoption home, while she went into the hospital. She thought she was going to die, but she eventually recovered. She occasionally tells me stories of how she would give my older brother lunch money, only to find out months later that his father was beating him and taking his lunch money to spend it at the bar. Eventually she had had enough and told him to get lost. Just as well, he could not even take care of himself, let alone us, his children.

Her oldest son, (my brother) became a drunk, and used to do nothing but sit around and drink beer, and he actually still does pretty much nothing. He married a Comanche woman and they live on her property and get benefits from the tribe and the US Government. (Thanks Gamblers and taxpayers! :) )

I could go on about some of my mom's friends and acquaintances, but I think you get the picture. Given her experiences with people who consume the stuff, If my mom doesn't want to drink the wine, i'm not going to bug her about it.
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‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

D Tibbets
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Post by D Tibbets »

MSimon wrote:
This involves both medical and societal perspectives.
In a country that supports individual liberties only "medical" should be a consideration.
That is a rather idealistic view point. The intimidating practices of the DEA and State agencies is a real impediment to appropriate pain management. It might decrease some abuse, but it certainly results in more suffering- Ying and Yang.
Other considerations I might add from the medical perspective is the safety profile, and the effectiveness of the treatment. If the benifit is small and/ or percentage of people actually helped is small and the side effects seriously injures or kills a significant number of people, then there is a uncertainty in the cost benefit ratio. Cholesterol lowering drugs fall in this area. There is little doubt that lowering/ modifying a persons cholesterol helps from a cardiac standpoint, but how low should you push. The drug companies have continually pushed the target lower and lower, the benefits become more marginal, and the side effects, including deaths from the meds increase in frequency (more people being treated for less benefit and more cost).

Dan Tibbets
To error is human... and I'm very human.

choff
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Post by choff »

D Tibbets wrote:choff, your assumption that all marihuana proscription seekers were prior recreational users is completely unsupported by the article, or any casual knowledge. If you have further knowledge in this matter, please present it. And, even if this was true, you still have not established a causal relationship.

As far as doctors withholding narcotic pain medicine because of uncertainty about the validity of the pain complaints, or because of fear of retribution from Federal or state authorities, both occurs. No medicine is completely safe (as pointed out Sunlight and water are not completely safe) At some point a decision has to be made as per cost/ benefit considerations. This involves both medical and societal perspectives.

Dan Tibbets
If you read carefully from the beginning you would see that I said 'most of the people responsible for the spike' not all of them. I have no difficulty with opiate and coca based medicine being legitimately prescribed by responsible doctors for legitimate reasons.

Sometimes the best defense against THE BIG LIE is to shock the lier back with an even more preposterous big lie. In example, while traveling in Paris my tour guide told me not to get sucked in by Gypsy beggars, they lived quite well in expensive houses. Sure enough a women in expensive designer clothing approached me requesting money 'for the baby'. I responded with,'I'm terribly sorry, but as you can clearly appreciate, I have no understanding of the English language.' I saw her stuffing a thick envelope into a bank machine some minutes later.

A large number of drug abusers are promoting medical marijuana as the latest ploy towards full legalization. They are lying when they claim its the best thing for all that ails them. I'm lying back claiming therefore it's the cause of all that ails them. I make joke. :lol:

The Canadian government it preparing to deal with abuse of the medical system by the medical marijuana crowd, it costs everybody.
CHoff

TDPerk
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Post by TDPerk »

"I don't really have a problem with alcohol, but I do think people ought to face the truth about it's negative effects on some individuals and society. I don't care if people get blotto faced, as long as they are taking care of their responsibilities. "

The same reasoning is why I believe recreational drugs should be legalized. We already know how American society reacts to legalized drugs--the criminals have a harder time making money, and the addicted are no more numerous and have an easier time getting help.
molon labe
montani semper liberi
para fides paternae patria

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