Please, Try to Make a Lovely Peaceful World

[Diogenes]

I was not objecting to the death penalty. I think it is way overused in America but I do think it is deserved in some cases. I was objecting to the death penalty for

1. a minor

Careful there again, Msimon...

http://deathpenalty.uslegal.com/minors/ ... or-minors/

I am against the death penalty, because it is irreversible. Once someone has been executed and you find out that he was innocent what can you do? Nothing! If someone was falsly imprisoned, you can at least release him and help him back into life...

I cant imagine a worse fate than being executed for a crime that someone else commited.

I can. Seeing someone go free for the crime which THEY committed against a member of my family. It turns a single evil into two evils. It fills the family with a mindset of revenge, and pushes them to take the law into their own hands to see justice done.

Another example.

You have an argument for requiring it only when the evidence is overwhelming and compelling, (which Is how it should be in my opinion) but you have no argument for getting rid of it.

[Giorgio]

In the laws of every country, there are shortcomings. Some governments punish people because of denying the Holocaust. Some governments punish people because of denying God. Unfortunately in some countries there is death penalty.

Yes some countries says that God is the master of life and death, yet these countries seems to be the one who pretend to decide who must lives and who dies instead of leaving this decision to God.
Isn't god the only one that can remove the life he gave to us? So, how do you justify killing someone because he does not believe in god?
Isn't this a personal business between the person and God once he will meet him after his NATURAL death?

I think the best way to determine right and wrong belief, is to generalize it to the whole world.

Suppose, for example, all people are homosexual. Then the human race becomes extinct. So, The idea is not good.

But if all people become homosexual this can happen only for the willing of God, as he his the Almighty. So if human race becomes extinct this is the willing of God himself.
Who are you to oppose his willing?

Let all the world's people are denying God. Then the whole world is depressed. According to psychologists research , life expectancy is low and feelling the real joy is destroyed. So, this idea is not good.

Yeah, so is much better to issue a Fatwa to kill the one who do not believe anymore so they do not get depressed.... Interesting logic, really.
I just hope for you that your doctors do not use the same system when you get a cold.

Your reasoning is failing on so many points........

[Diogenes]

I just wish the "anti-death-Penalty" types had to PAY the bill for their beliefs.

I'm still paying the bills last time I checked.

You misunderstand my point. So...Am...I.

It is right and proper that YOU should be paying the bill, but it is not right that *I* should be paying the bill. I am in fact, subsidizing what I regard as your foolish beliefs.

If you want to save money in the prison system, turn it into an industry of rehabilitation, not destruction.

This is an idea I am willing to consider. I have long wondered if there might be a better way of dealing with prisoners, and I have long thought that it serves no useful purpose to warehouse them in cells. I have a few ideas along these lines, but only regarding those people who have not crossed an irrevocable threshold. (Murder for example)

How logical is it that we put those who have committed petty crimes (drug possession, posession of stolen property, etc.) in with hardened convicts (murders)? We expect them to serve their time and come out golden after 5-10 years? Yeah good luck with that one. I'm willing to bet that if you served 5-10 years in there or even a year, you'd come out vastly different.

I don't believe incarceration is the best solution, but if you have a hammer (prison, prison employees, court system) all your problems (criminals) start to look like nails.

Rehabilitation, a better way to spend that same exact money.

If it works. Given the success of government at running anything, I am willing to bet they can screw that idea up as well.

[Diogenes]

You have an argument for getting better jurors, not for opposing the death penalty. My observation of the court system leads me to believe that it is often a massive series of fallacies stacked one atop the other, starting with it's methodology of "Precedent." (Formalized Tu quoque in my opinion)

Apart from getting competent courts and juries, there is nothing wrong with the death penalty. I think it should be expanded to include repeated violent crimes (three strikes, you're out!) and various other cases in which it ought to be used.

You are pretty much summing up most of my concerns about the death penalty.
As long as there are humans involved with the justice system starting with the examination of the evidence, to the prosecution, the court, the judges, the jurors, event he defense, mistakes will be made and innocent people will be sentenced for crimes they did not commit.
And for these reasons I am against the death penalty.
Once you can proof to me that the justice system is solid enough for this to never happen, you may have your executions. Until then, no thanks!

In cases where the evidence is not good, the probability of mistakes increases. In the cases where the evidence is very good, the probability of mistakes decline.

You would have us throw out a tool (deterrence) because it can sometimes be misused by incompetents. Rather than take steps to insure that incompetents are kept away from it, you favor throwing away the tool.

Not very sensible in my opinion. Thankfully, you live in your country, (which is crashing faster than ours), and I live here in this one. It is my perception that most of the problems in this nation are caused by people who think we should emulate the Europeans, and their Godless, Socialistic society. (Soon to be changed into an Islamic Theocracy! I cannot WAIT to see the Atheists argue with them! Hee hee. Darwin will spin in his grave (like an Iranian Centrifuge) laughing at the survival of the "fittest in the contest between atheists and the theocratic! Not so smart as they thought they were! Ha ha ha... )

[Giorgio]

Not very sensible in my opinion. Thankfully, you live in your country, (which is crashing faster than ours), and I live here in this one. It is my perception that most of the problems in this nation are caused by people who think we should emulate the Europeans, and their Godless, Socialistic society. (Soon to be changed into an Islamic Theocracy! I cannot WAIT to see the Atheists argue with them! Hee hee. Darwin will spin in his grave (like an Iranian Centrifuge) laughing at the survival of the "fittest in the contest between atheists and the theocratic! Not so smart as they thought they were! Ha ha ha... )

I am with Skipjack on this one. I do not see how death penalty can actually be a deterrent to Religious nuts of any belief.

As for Europe you could be surprised to know that the vast majority of second generation muslim immigrants just loose much (when not all) of the religious pressure of their parents. Open morals and open culture, as well as not being obliged to study a religious belief 24h/day, are a good deterrents against the spreading of extremism and a good push to make people actually use their brain and THINK.

[Diogenes]

In the laws of every country, there are shortcomings. Some governments punish people because of denying the Holocaust. Some governments punish people because of denying God. Unfortunately in some countries there is death penalty.

Yes some countries says that God is the master of life and death, yet these countries seems to be the one who pretend to decide who must lives and who dies instead of leaving this decision to God.

You mean like those people who perform abortions? I have no problem with the taking of life, provided the life deserves to be taken. Killing the innocent who have committed no crime, is an abomination.

Isn't god the only one that can remove the life he gave to us?

No, of course not. Other people can do it too. Examples abound. The point is, it is not proper to do so unless the killing is justified, such as for a resolution of a crime. (It is not simply a "punishment" it has two other aspects as well. It removes a source of danger from society, and it deters others from committing the same crime.)

So, how do you justify killing someone because he does not believe in god?
Isn't this a personal business between the person and God once he will meet him after his NATURAL death?

You may not be familiar with George Will, but he is a famous conservative syndicated columnist in the U.S. He has been writing for at least thirty years, and he is quite astute. You postulate an absolute moral reference frame, and are seemingly unaware that morality too can be relative.

As George Will once wrote in his column: (Referring to the Salem Witch trials, and I paraphrase)

If you believe that witches are inimical entities in league with the devil, and collaborating with him for the purpose of bringing harm to you and your family, then it is reasonable to believe that they should be killed, and thereby prevent the danger.

The corollary is that if you believe a lack of belief in God posses a threat to your family (perhaps by bringing down the wrath of God upon your community) then it is not unreasonable to believe that such people need killing.

My advice to people who do not share these beliefs is to stay away from such people as do. I would also urge caution in trying to change their beliefs.

I think the best way to determine right and wrong belief, is to generalize it to the whole world.

Suppose, for example, all people are homosexual. Then the human race becomes extinct. So, The idea is not good.

But if all people become homosexual this can happen only for the willing of God, as he his the Almighty. So if human race becomes extinct this is the willing of God himself.
Who are you to oppose his willing?

If God be for it, no man can be against it. The axiomatic fact is that it is not so, therefore it must not be God's will.

Let all the world's people are denying God. Then the whole world is depressed. According to psychologists research , life expectancy is low and feelling the real joy is destroyed. So, this idea is not good.

Yeah, so is much better to issue a Fatwa to kill the one who do not believe anymore so they do not get depressed.... Interesting logic, really.
I just hope for you that your doctors do not use the same system when you get a cold.

Your reasoning is failing on so many points........

It is being argued from a different moral reference frame; that of a different set of beliefs. Within the reference frame of his beliefs, the logic makes sense, and indeed, is even obvious. You have different beliefs. Until you understand the reference frame of his beliefs, they will not make sense to you.

Subsequent reasoning of anything is often based on prior (not necessarily correct) assumptions.

[Diogenes]

Not very sensible in my opinion. Thankfully, you live in your country, (which is crashing faster than ours), and I live here in this one. It is my perception that most of the problems in this nation are caused by people who think we should emulate the Europeans, and their Godless, Socialistic society. (Soon to be changed into an Islamic Theocracy! I cannot WAIT to see the Atheists argue with them! Hee hee. Darwin will spin in his grave (like an Iranian Centrifuge) laughing at the survival of the "fittest in the contest between atheists and the theocratic! Not so smart as they thought they were! Ha ha ha... )

I am with Skipjack on this one. I do not see how death penalty can actually be a deterrent to Religious nuts of any belief.

I was referring to criminals. My foray into theocracy had nothing to do with the death penalty and everything to do with pointing out the foolishness of European immigration policy.

As for Europe you could be surprised to know that the vast majority of second generation muslim immigrants just loose much (when not all) of the religious pressure of their parents. Open morals and open culture, as well as not being obliged to study a religious belief 24h/day, are a good deterrents against the spreading of extremism and a good push to make people actually use their brain and THINK.

I think "thinking" has been going out of style for a long time. Too much entertainment in the guise of stupid television and movies has rotted the brains of much of the world's citizenry.

Perhaps the suggestion of some (and i'm not going to name names) will come to pass? (Porn is going to save us all! )

It remains to be seen how this contest between modern decadence and the meme of Islam will play out. I suspect when you reach a certain critical mass, a chain reaction will occur, and you shall find yourselves in the midst of a social explosion.

[Skipjack]

Seeing someone go free for the crime which THEY committed against a member of my family.

What if you got falsly executed for a crime that someone else commited against your family?
So the real killer goes free and you get to die for him and dont live to see him brought to justice or to take revenge on your own...
As I said, worst nightmare.

Not very sensible in my opinion. Thankfully, you live in your country, (which is crashing faster than ours), and I live here in this one. It is my perception that most of the problems in this nation are caused by people who think we should emulate the Europeans, and their Godless, Socialistic society.

Ok, you are finally showing your real face. I am sure you are a big fan of Mr O'Riley and other idiots on FOX that talk like this.

For your information, there are still a lot of practicing catholics in Europe. Heck I went to a catholic school with catholic priests as teachers...
I am sure Giorgio has a lot to say about the religious people in his country too. Interestingly enough many mafiosi go to the church every sunday to get absolution for their many sins
Putting that aside, my country while certainly not doing that well, is not doing so badly either. Despite the many immigrants (which I do not favor), our crimerates are waaaaay lower than yours. Generally Austria is not all that bad, really.

Also, just to make things clear. Even though I am against the death penalty due to the chance of human error being to great (I just dont trust humans, half of them have an IQ below average and the average is not very high), I am not for the so called "humane punishment" that the socialists here propagate. So dont get me confused with those people, alright.

[Giorgio]

My advice to people who do not share these beliefs is to stay away from such people as do. I would also urge caution in trying to change their beliefs.

This part of my post was a logical reasoning. Commenting the single steps does not make sense.
Also, if you are assuming that my intention is to change someone belief, than you did not get the meaning of my example. I am just pointing out how weak and failing fundamentalist logic is when applied to opposing other's different beliefs, and how easily it can backfire in your face.

If God be for it, no man can be against it. The axiomatic fact is that it is not so, therefore it must not be God's will.

Do you know God time scale? Do you know for sure that he has not already decided for this to be our destiny and this is just the start of it?

The point of this being, if you believe in a supernatural being that is the master of your destiny than why you try to alter it? Let it be or you are not respecting your own fundamental belief.
You cannot argue on this.

It is being argued from a different moral reference frame; that of a different set of beliefs. Within the reference frame of his beliefs, the logic makes sense, and indeed, is even obvious. You have different beliefs. Until you understand the reference frame of his beliefs, they will not make sense to you.

I am not arguing on that. I am arguing on him trying to impose his beliefs on MY reference frame.
Your beliefs ends right in front of my doorstep.

ubsequent reasoning of anything is often based on prior (not necessarily correct) assumptions.

Which applies also to the reasoning you just made. IMHO

[Giorgio]

I am sure Giorgio has a lot to say about the religious people in his country too. Interestingly enough many mafiosi go to the church every sunday to get absolution for their many sins

Please don't get me started on this!

[Diogenes]

Seeing someone go free for the crime which THEY committed against a member of my family.

What if you got falsly executed for a crime that someone else commited against your family?
So the real killer goes free and you get to die for him and dont live to see him brought to justice or to take revenge on your own...
As I said, worst nightmare.

As I said, the evidence should be compelling, not ambiguous.

Not very sensible in my opinion. Thankfully, you live in your country, (which is crashing faster than ours), and I live here in this one. It is my perception that most of the problems in this nation are caused by people who think we should emulate the Europeans, and their Godless, Socialistic society.

Ok, you are finally showing your real face. I am sure you are a big fan of Mr O'Riley and other idiots on FOX that talk like this.

I can't stand Bill O'Riley. He tries to split the difference between good and evil, and i'd rather take one or the other without apologies.

For your information, there are still a lot of practicing catholics in Europe. Heck I went to a catholic school with catholic priests as teachers...
I am sure Giorgio has a lot to say about the religious people in his country too. Interestingly enough many mafiosi go to the church every sunday to get absolution for their many sins

I have no doubt that there are religious people in Europe, but it is not their principles which has been running Europe in the last many decades, it is the Atheistic Socialists who have been bribing the people with the money of others who have been in power for a very long time. (Same as here, but we're not as far along.)

Putting that aside, my country while certainly not doing that well, is not doing so badly either. Despite the many immigrants (which I do not favor), our crimerates are waaaaay lower than yours. Generally Austria is not all that bad, really.

But not for the reasons you think. I have no interest in discussing WHY your crime rate is lower than ours. It is considered a taboo in our society to discuss such things. Suffice it to say, your demographics is very different from ours.

Also, just to make things clear. Even though I am against the death penalty due to the chance of human error being to great (I just dont trust humans, half of them have an IQ below average and the average is not very high), I am not for the so called "humane punishment" that the socialists here propagate. So dont get me confused with those people, alright.

I think there are cases in which the evidence is not completely conclusive. In such cases I would favor erring on the side of caution. There are however cases in which the evidence is extensive and compelling. In such cases, the individual needs to be executed as quickly as possible.

[Diogenes]

Do you know God time scale? Do you know for sure that he has not already decided for this to be our destiny and this is just the start of it?

The point of this being, if you believe in a supernatural being that is the master of your destiny than why you try to alter it? Let it be or you are not respecting your own fundamental belief.
You cannot argue on this.

*My* religious upbringing argues the principle of "free will." God gives you enough rope to hang yourself with. (Besides, it doesn't have to make sense. It's religion.)

It is being argued from a different moral reference frame; that of a different set of beliefs. Within the reference frame of his beliefs, the logic makes sense, and indeed, is even obvious. You have different beliefs. Until you understand the reference frame of his beliefs, they will not make sense to you.

I am not arguing on that. I am arguing on him trying to impose his beliefs on MY reference frame.
Your beliefs ends right in front of my doorstep.

That sounds reasonable, but are you not arguing about how his beliefs affect those in front of HIS doorstep? (Within Iran.)

ubsequent reasoning of anything is often based on prior (not necessarily correct) assumptions.

Which applies also to the reasoning you just made. IMHO

Absolutely! You show me an error in my facts or reasoning, and I will incorporate these new facts and reasoning into my better evolved model of perception! (world view)



Of course, *I* never make mistakes. Once I thought I did, but I was wrong.

[Skipjack]

There are however cases in which the evidence is extensive and compelling.

You mean like that guy in Texas, hu?
As I said, humans make mistakes. Ae long as humans are involved there is no certainty.
What is wrong with having the guy work instead?

[Betruger]

Suppose, for example, all people are homosexual. Then the human race becomes extinct. So, The idea is not good.

What if, in this simplified world, they thus lived and died happily? That seems about as good as it gets. A happy life doing what you love and loving what you do. I'm no homosexual, and I'm agnostic (not atheist), but anything that denies people from living life as they want to - in other words the pursuit of happiness - is Not Good.

The denying God bit cannot be so simplified. It is not at all such a black and white, single component dynamic. One certainly can live a healthy, happy, satisfying life without knowing if God exists or not.

As I see it.

Isn't this a personal business between the person and God once he will meet him after his NATURAL death?

Exactly. If I live a life that "God" deems up to his standards, it should be by my own savvy, not by a life read by someone else's script. And vice versa - I am responsible for my actions, not anyone else.

[Giorgio]

(Besides, it doesn't have to make sense. It's religion.)

Indeed, most of the times religion makes little sense at all.

That sounds reasonable, but are you not arguing about how his beliefs affect those in front of HIS doorstep? (Within Iran.)

No, I am arguing that HIS willingness to impose HIS belief on others will effect other's life against their will.
If you stick to your belief and do not try to force them on me, than why should I care?
Each human should be seen as a single doorstep where any other human should stop and ask permission to come in before entering.
As the Romans used to say, vivas et relinquas vivere, live your life and let the others live their.

Of course, *I* never make mistakes. Once I thought I did, but I was wrong.

Eheheh, nice one.
An alternate way to say that no one ever makes mistakes in his own reference frame