10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

[Giorgio]

We already have evidence and experiments demonstrating photonic BEC at room temperature. It is not just temperature that can determine the BEC statistical state, cavity geometry (length scale) can also ....

I really would like that you guys could bring some new arguments sometime, but it looks to me like is enough for you to read a few words of an article abstract to think that you can apply its results to any other arguments that contains the same (or similar) words.

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v4 ... 09567.html
http://nextbigfuture.com/2010/11/bose-e ... e-can.html

or you could do the math?

Enlighten me than, because I would love to see some math. Unfortunately till now all what I am seeing and reading are just words taken out of a context and poorly applied to a completely different concept.

So if it is the interstitial spacing of the nickel lattice containing the protons that is the determining factor for BEC conditions to occur (and ensuing Josephson tunnelling fusion) it would be possible that temperature (up or down) is a knob that can adjust the the geometry (length scale) of the lattice to induce BEC formation.

You have no idea of what you are talking about if you think than an optical microcavity (in 3 dimensions!!!) can be formed with a lattice deformation from a heat source.
What will be next? The optical microcavities will go in coherent state and form a Rydberg matter? Please....

[icarus]

Okay, just humour us Giorgio (assume we are as stupid as you seem to be suggesting) ... I'm interested to see how your physics thought process goes.

Assume Rossi's device is producing excess heat, undetectable radiation emission, contains enriched Ni 62 & 64 powder, H2 gas, etc, etc.

How would you hazard a guess as to what is going on?


Note: Talk-polywell is not a peer-review journal contribution just a place where some guys are shooting the breeze whilst endlessly waiting for fragments of info from a "blacked-out" fusion project that shall remain unmentionable ....(it is easy to run others down least you have to show your true abilities ... or lack thereof.)

[Joseph Chikva]

Assume Rossi's device is producing excess heat

Assume that I can walk over the water. Like Jesus.
Would you not like to ask me to show my claimed capabilities?
I will be forced to use some trick as actually I can not.

Rossi could not provide corresponding evidences.
What you talk about?
Do you want to see the theory how to produce heat in a crystal? Here?

I see here only one man who really seems as trained enough in solid state physics at level allowing discussing such themes. This is johanfprins. And this is only my impression about him. As there can be that he too not capable to discuss seriously.
But here are a lot people capable to estimate how Rossi has measured "excess heat". Me too.
And to be short the answer is "badly".

[Giorgio]

Okay, just humour us Giorgio (assume we are as stupid as you seem to be suggesting) ... I'm interested to see how your physics thought process goes.

Assume Rossi's device is producing excess heat, undetectable radiation emission, contains enriched Ni 62 & 64 powder, H2 gas, etc, etc.

How would you hazard a guess as to what is going on?

Look, it does not work that way. If you think you have discovered a new process you either offer an explanation for it or you clearly PROVE it and ask others to try to explain it.
Till now Rossi did not put forward any explanation for this nor clearly proved it. What should we talk about?
I'll quote Chrismb when he stated that the best explanation to date for the Rossi reactor has to be researched in the realm of the Tooth Fairy.

If you want to discuss seriously this stuff, bring some data, REAL data.

Note: Talk-polywell is not a peer-review journal contribution just a place where some guys are shooting the breeze whilst endlessly waiting for fragments of info from a "blacked-out" fusion project that shall remain unmentionable ....(it is easy to run others down least you have to show your true abilities ... or lack thereof.)

That does not mean that you can just breeze out the first thing that passes out in your brain without even understanding what you are talking about, like the nonsense you just did of trying to apply those microcavity experimental results to a Nickel lattice.
You should read and understand what they did before offering it as an hypothesis to any possible Cold Fusion process.

[KitemanSA]

Not necessarily. At low temperatures, it is just that it is simpler to establish the correct boundary/initial conditions for the effect to manifest. (As with many other 'quantum' coherent phenomena.)

We have discussed this before.
The idea of a quantum coherent phenomena at high temperature does not make sense. You cannot get a "coherent" state while increasing "random" motion.

But one question remains. Does the "increasing "random" motion of the lattice (the Nickel in this case) necessarily translate to the free electrons or potential free protons?
Maybe the electron or proton "gas" generated by the loading of Nickel can become a BEC at MUCH higher temperatures than has been knowingly achieved to date. After all, the masses of the particles are much smaller than Rubidium (the first BEC) and the particle density can be HUGELY larger than the Rubidium "gas" used in that experiment. The critical temperature for a BEC is inversely related to the mass and directly proportional to the 2/3 exponent of the particle density.

[Giorgio]

But one question remains. Does the "increasing "random" motion of the lattice (the Nickel in this case) necessarily translate to the free electrons or potential free protons?
Maybe the electron or proton "gas" generated by the loading of Nickel can become a BEC at MUCH higher temperatures than has been knowingly achieved to date. After all, the masses of the particles are much smaller than Rubidium (the first BEC) and the particle density can be HUGELY larger than the Rubidium "gas" used in that experiment. The critical temperature for a BEC is inversely related to the mass and directly proportional to the 2/3 exponent of the particle density.

Yes, particle density is pretty important, but the main factor for the formation of a BEC is for the bosons to get at the same state so that the wave functions overlap.
The higher the temperature the more difficult for the individual bosons wave functions to synchronize.
Additionally at high temperatures, the individual bosons move much more rapidly flying around in random motion, hence making more difficult to have a local space dX (in the time dT) to have enough density to actually allow the BEC formation even if the wave functions (for some unknown reason) did overlap.

[Kahuna]

NyTeknik has assembled and summarized several of the more credible analyses of the Oct 6th E-Cat demos here:

http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_m ... 295411.ece

There are links to the detail of each analysis and a summary. All see major flaws in Rossi's test setup, yet all but one seem to believe that anomalous heat was demonstrated during the self-sustain mode.

Selected Quotes:"

Heffner: “This test incorporated many improvements over prior tests. However, as in the numerous prior demonstrations of the E-cats, we are left tantalized by a strong indication of possible excess energy, and disappointed that, with a little extra effort, high quality proof might have finally been at hand.

Roberson: “The long period of relatively constant heat production following deactivation of the E-cat main internal core heater suggests significant excess energy. Accurate determination of that energy cannot be established due to imperfections of the test setup.”

Higgins: ” Skeptics will insist the test was too short and lacked sufficient rigor to provide incontrovertible evidence of a nuclear reaction – they are correct. However, despite the test’s flaws (and considering the integrity of those involved), the data suggests that substantial excess energy (as heat) was produced . . , Critical error analysis of the experiment will continue; but the expectation is that errors will be unable to account for the large excess heat output.

Also discussed are expectations for the 10/28 1MW test as well as Defkalion and Piantelli claims and activities.

Probably worth the read and has some good references.

[Giorgio]

@KitemanSA

In addition to my previous post, if you think that local density can be increased by the trapping of Hydrogen in the nickel lattice, you should come out with a good reason on HOW this could happen and WHY it was never been reported before.
In the last years I think thousands of labs around the world are experimenting in finding Hydrogen storage solutions and I doubt no one of them ever noticed that a nickel matrix has the ability to trap so much hydrogen in such a stable way.

[KitemanSA]

But one question remains. Does the "increasing "random" motion of the lattice (the Nickel in this case) necessarily translate to the free electrons or potential free protons?
Maybe the electron or proton "gas" generated by the loading of Nickel can become a BEC at MUCH higher temperatures than has been knowingly achieved to date. After all, the masses of the particles are much smaller than Rubidium (the first BEC) and the particle density can be HUGELY larger than the Rubidium "gas" used in that experiment. The critical temperature for a BEC is inversely related to the mass and directly proportional to the 2/3 exponent of the particle density.

Yes, particle density is pretty important, but the main factor for the formation of a BEC is for the bosons to get at the same state so that the wave functions overlap.
The higher the temperature the more difficult for the individual bosons wave functions to synchronize.
Additionally at high temperatures, the individual bosons move much more rapidly flying around in random motion, hence making more difficult to have a local space dX (in the time dT) to have enough density to actually allow the BEC formation even if the wave functions (for some unknown reason) did overlap.

Again, you are asuming that the temperature of the Nickel is necessarily the temperature of the bosons. This is still in question. Also, the equation for critical temperature doesn't have a published upper limit. Just saying.

[Giorgio]

Again, you are asuming that the temperature of the Nickel is necessarily the temperature of the bosons. This is still in question. Also, the equation for critical temperature doesn't have a published upper limit. Just saying.

You are right, but I do not have any other indication that can me me think that is not like that....
As for upper limit of critical temperature you are also correct, but the main issue with higher temperatures is the boson wave function.

[Axil]

The coherent control of mesoscopic ensembles of atoms and Rydberg atom blockade are the basis for proposed quantum devices such as integrable gates and single-photon sources. To date, experimental progress has been limited to complex experimental set-ups that use ultracold atoms. Here, we show that coherence times of ~100 ns are achievable with coherent Rydberg atom spectroscopy in micrometre-sized thermal vapour cells. We investigate states with principle quantum numbers between 30 and 50. Our results demonstrate that microcells with a size on the order of the blockade radius (~2 µm), at temperatures of 100–300 °C, are robust and promising candidates for investigating low-dimensional strongly interacting Rydberg gases, constructing quantum gates and building single-photon sources.

http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/090 ... 0275v1.pdf



What makes an ensemblage of hydrogen atoms coherent in hot hydrogen gas is Rydberg hydrogen atom blockade.

Note that coherence happens at 300C.

[KitemanSA]

@KitemanSA

In addition to my previous post, if you think that local density can be increased by the trapping of Hydrogen in the nickel lattice, you should come out with a good reason on HOW this could happen and WHY it was never been reported before.
In the last years I think thousands of labs around the world are experimenting in finding Hydrogen storage solutions and I doubt no one of them ever noticed that a nickel matrix has the ability to trap so much hydrogen in such a stable way.

Loading of Hydrogen in Nickel has been reported numerous times. I have read values as high as 0.9 H/Ni. Given that Nickel has about 9/58= moles per cm³, the H density is about 0.14A/cm³, which gives an n value of ~8.4E22 which has got to be increadibly higher than the Rubidium gas used for the early BEC experiments.

[Giorgio]

That proves exactly what I was saying to KitemanSa.

To get to that result they needed to:

1) To have confine the excitation volume (dX) nof the atoms in a space that is less than the blockade radius.

2) To have excitation times (dT) shorter than the timescales of the dephasing mechanisms.


In terms of equipment they needed:

1) A closed volume of few nanometers to get the blockade effect.

2) Few lasers to excite the atoms at exactly the needed energy state. Little bit more or less and no coherence will be formed.

3) Minimize and optimize the interaction of the atoms with the chamber walls, as this is always a destructive condition for coherence.


Look as I said many many times before, I am not opposing the idea that you can get an high temperature BEC with proper experimental setup and conditions, what I am strongly opposing is the idea that you can get it done in a steel box with an electric heater.
Thinking that you can do that means not understanding the very basics of what a BEC is and how is formed.

[Giorgio]

@KitemanSA

In addition to my previous post, if you think that local density can be increased by the trapping of Hydrogen in the nickel lattice, you should come out with a good reason on HOW this could happen and WHY it was never been reported before.
In the last years I think thousands of labs around the world are experimenting in finding Hydrogen storage solutions and I doubt no one of them ever noticed that a nickel matrix has the ability to trap so much hydrogen in such a stable way.

Loading of Hydrogen in Nickel has been reported numerous times. I have read values as high as 0.9 H/Ni. Given that Nickel has about 9/58= moles per cm³, the H density is about 0.14A/cm³, which gives an n value of ~8.4E22 which has got to be increadibly higher than the Rubidium gas used for the early BEC experiments.

I missed those results in Nickel matrix, please give me a link and I will check them.
Even with those values you still have two factors that you need to overcome:

1) Accessible states per particle becomes bigger, and hence more difficult for them to form a coherent state.

2) The higher the temperature the lower the relative density of the group of atoms (that is unless you trap them somehow as shown in the paper Axil posted).

[Axil]

Mainstream science today think that Rydberg matter is an exotic lab curiosity and will not be available for many years, if at all.

But

http://www.maik.ru/full/lasphys/02/2/la ... 35full.pdf

The experimental results have been obtained using
new techniques to create large densities of highly
excited Rydberg species. Alkaline atom Rydberg species
are generally simplest to form because of the low
ionization energy of alkaline atoms. The new techniques
employ diffusion of alkaline ions from the bulk
of nonmetallic materials. For example, in the case of
graphite surfaces, it was shown that the emission of Cs+
ions gives rise to a nearly resonant process that forms
Rydberg species from the emitted ions and thermal
electrons. By increasing the pressure of Cs vapor in
contact with such surfaces and by ensuring that diffusion
takes place in the material, high densities of Cs and
K Rydberg species have been achieved. Small particles
(clusters) and macroscopic amounts of RM can be produced
by using Cs vapor.

The behavior observed for RM produced by such
methods qualitatively agrees with theoretical predictions:
RM is, for example, transparent to the visible
light and emits much less light than an ordinary plasma
would when high currents are carried. The observed
matter is very energetic, which is easy to observe
through explosions of the matter under simultaneous
emission of the visible light or charged particles for
both small particles of RM and large layers of RM on
surfaces.

In other words, Rossi uses a Alkaline-doped metal-oxide or carbon surfaces under high pressure and temperature (e.g., promoted catalyst surfaces) to provide high densities of Rydberg species including Alkaline Rydberg matter.

These clusters of Alkaline atom Rydberg species quantum blockade hydrogen atoms to breed clusters of hydrogen Rydberg matter.

These various Rydberg matter clusters last a long time and provide coherent hunks of metallic hydrogen to interact with the nickel surface.

Rydberg matter, i.e., a condensed phase of excited
atoms and molecules, was predicted more than 20 years
ago. Comprehensive quantum-mechanical calculations
have been performed to predict different properties and
the lifetime of RM. These calculations have shown that
RM is a long-lived excited state of matter. According to
theoretical predictions, the RM lifetime may be as long
as 10 min or even several hours and days. These predictions
are consistent with long radiative lifetimes of even
isolated circular Rydberg atoms. (The lifetime averaged
over the angular momentum quantum number is
0.18 s for n = 40 and 17 s for n = 100 [32].