10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

[Giorgio]

Crawdaddy,
Agreed. I was just looking for order of magnitude.

If you think that a 2" pipeline can indefinitely transfer any amount of steam just because you wish so than you must have no knowledge of steam transport technology and of the related concepts like the choked flow condition, just to name one. You seem to ignore also what could be the radial and axial tension of a pipe subject to these conditions.

[Crawdaddy]

Crawdaddy,
Agreed. I was just looking for order of magnitude.

If you think that a 2" pipeline can indefinitely transfer any amount of steam just because you wish so than you must have no knowledge of steam transport technology and of the related concepts like the choked flow condition, just to name one. You seem to ignore also what could be the radial and axial tension of a pipe subject to these conditions.

Please enlighten the discussion with calculated values of the limits of the system.

Feel free to use the images of the actual device in question to determine the dimensions in question..

[ScottL]

Crawdaddy,
Agreed. I was just looking for order of magnitude.

If you think that a 2" pipeline can indefinitely transfer any amount of steam just because you wish so than you must have no knowledge of steam transport technology and of the related concepts like the choked flow condition, just to name one. You seem to ignore also what could be the radial and axial tension of a pipe subject to these conditions.

Please enlighten the discussion with calculated values of the limits of the system.

Feel free to use the images of the actual device in question to determine the dimensions in question..

The dimensions have already been discussed and determined so no image processing needed.

[Crawdaddy]

The dimensions have already been discussed and determined so no image processing needed.

I don't think this is exactly true.

There is a big difference between a short length of 2" pipe which acts like a nozzle and the entirety of the internal plumbing of the device being made of 2" pipe.

It appears from actually looking at the internal construction of the shipping container that the main steam manifold is made of at least 4" pipe.

These distinctions are extremely important to an accurate description of whether it is even possible for rossi to generate 1MW of steam.
[/quote]

[ladajo]

The table says a 2" pipe carries ~10 lb/min of steam (1 psi pressure drop).
For one hour that is 600lb of steam
Say 1150 btu/lb to boil water.
1150 x 600 = 690,000 BTU
1 kW = 3412 BTU
So 690,000 BTU = 202 kW

You were right. - I don't normally use kW for heat...
Something is screwy. Even 50 psi drop only doubles the capacity.
I'll have to think about it.

From the same table one would need a 4 - 5" pipe

Dude,
those of us who have worked with high capacity steam systems have been saying that. Why couldn't you listen?

Rossi does not know what he is doing.

[ScottL]

The dimensions have already been discussed and determined so no image processing needed.

I don't think this is exactly true.

There is a big difference between a short length of 2" pipe which acts like a nozzle and the entirety of the internal plumbing of the device being made of 2" pipe.

It appears from actually looking at the internal construction of the shipping container that the main steam manifold is made of at least 4" pipe.

These distinctions are extremely important to an accurate description of whether it is even possible for rossi to generate 1MW of steam.

I disagree. You're looking at a major bottleneck with the 2" pipe being fed by several 4" pipes. I think Giorgio and other's postings about this potentially being dangerous providing the device works are completely logical in this sense.

[stefanbanev]

If you think that a 2" pipeline can indefinitely transfer any amount of steam just because you wish so than you must have no knowledge of steam transport technology and of the related concepts like the choked flow condition, just to name one. You seem to ignore also what could be the radial and axial tension of a pipe subject to these conditions.

Please enlighten the discussion with calculated values of the limits of the system.

Feel free to use the images of the actual device in question to determine the dimensions in question..

The dimensions have already been discussed and determined so no image processing needed.

Actually it has not been shown what specific pressure/temperature/flow is needed to deliver 1MB output across 2" tube by water (or water vapor). It's clear there is some pressure/flow/temperature threshold allowing to deliver 1MW output through 2" tube; the question is how realistic this threshold is. Anyway, I would not be surprised if it is not realistic taking into account Rossi's messy habits to run his endeavor (based on public record)...

[Crawdaddy]

stefanbanev

Actually it has not been shown what specific pressure/temperature/flow is needed to deliver 1MB output across 2" tube by water (or water vapor). It's clear there is some pressure/flow/temperature threshold allowing to deliver 1MW output through 2" tube; the question is how realistic this threshold is. Anyway, I would not be surprised if it is not realistic taking into account Rossi's messy habits to run his endeavor (based on public record)...

Table 68 in the book chapter Parallel linked shows that at 25psi a 3square inch orifice (i.e. a 2" pipe) delivers 1MW of steam flow, since 60Lbs/min is approximately 1MW.

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/22657/22 ... /flow.html

[sparkyy0007]

2 inch ID_ 24 inch long

Steam flow = 0.385 kg s-1
Temperature = 390k
Outlet boundry = atm

Steam mass flow was derived from:

0.385kg s-1 = 1000kw/(4.186 kJ /kg k * 80k + 2270kJ/kg)

[KitemanSA]

Many sources have been given far back in this topic thread and it's parent thread.
Do not call me a fool. Instead contest with the resources. One of the simplest and straight forward is:

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hb ... ucbin.html

There is no need to contest the sourses. Every link you have ever provided provided save one Wiki article that was written poorly has supported MY statements, not yours. As does this one.

The only statement therein that might conceivably be thought to support yours is:

The buildup of heavier elements in the nuclear fusion processes in stars is limited to elements below iron, since the fusion of iron would subtract energy rather than provide it.

which talks of fusing iron. I have always agreed that fusing iron (or Nickel or any of those type elements) is endothermic. It is the fusing of HYDROGEN onto iron (or any of the heavier stable isotopes) the is exothermic. But it seems that process in stars is not generally considered "fusion" but transmutation (or nuclear synthesis).

Also understand that many of your links made statements about processes in stars. The conditions of the plasma in stars may not be amenable to the retention of protons at a high rate since when a proton enters a heavy nucleus (gets dragged in actually) the energy released must go somewhere. Since adding a proton to anything in that range would be LESS stable than the lower isotope, the easiest thing to happen is for the proton to be ejected taking the energy back out with it. Having been rejected, the reaction has been as if it never happened. It is then tallied up as a "coulomb collision".

But if there were another way to release that energy, as in Internal Conversion, the reaction would release it's energy another way. But the point is, it would release energy.

[Crawdaddy]

2 inch ID_ 24 inch long

Steam flow = 0.385 kg s-1
Temperature = 390k
Outlet boundry = atm

Very Nice!

Table 68 in the book chapter predicts a flow of around 400m/s at 450g/s and an inlet pressure of 25psi (in table 68).

The book chapter states:
"The flow of steam of a higher toward a lower pressure increases as the difference in pressure increases to a point where the external pressure becomes 58 per cent of the absolute initial pressure. Below this point the flow is neither increased nor decreased by a reduction of the external pressure, even to the extent of a perfect vacuum. The lowest pressure for which this statement holds when steam is discharged into the atmosphere is 25.37 pounds. For any pressure below this figure, the atmospheric pressure, 14.7 pounds, is greater than 58 per cent of the initial pressure."

Why does your simulated result show flow rates well beyond this limit?

Thanks for taking some time to contribute materially to this discussion.

[sparkyy0007]

2 inch ID_ 24 inch long

Steam flow = 0.385 kg s-1
Temperature = 390k
Outlet boundry = atm

Very Nice!

Table 68 in the book chapter predicts a flow of around 400m/s at 450g/s and an inlet pressure of 25psi (in table 68).

The book chapter states:
"The flow of steam of a higher toward a lower pressure increases as the difference in pressure increases to a point where the external pressure becomes 58 per cent of the absolute initial pressure. Below this point the flow is neither increased nor decreased by a reduction of the external pressure, even to the extent of a perfect vacuum. The lowest pressure for which this statement holds when steam is discharged into the atmosphere is 25.37 pounds. For any pressure below this figure, the atmospheric pressure, 14.7 pounds, is greater than 58 per cent of the initial pressure."

Why does your simulated result show flow rates well beyond this limit?

Thanks for taking some time to contribute materially to this discussion.

Thanks, but I thought I contributed before.

I calculated 0.385 kg s-1 for the mass flow for 1MW heat source.
This uses 129 kW for heating the make up at equilibrium with 874 Kw left for latent.
0.385 kg s-1 * 2.2 lb/kg * 60s = 50.82 lbs/min
If you look at table 66 for a dp of 1 psi , 50lbs/min of steam for a 2 inch pipe is off the chart > 150 psig.
The point is sonic flow conditions (choked flow) are not desirable as they limit the flow unless pressure is increased.

[Crawdaddy]

Sparkyy007

Thanks, but I thought I contributed before.

Ha!

I calculated 0.385 kg s-1 for the mass flow for 1MW heat source.
This uses 129 kW for heating the make up at equilibrium with 874 Kw left for latent.
0.385 kg s-1 * 2.2 lb/kg * 60s = 50.82 lbs/min
If you look at table 66 for a dp of 1 psi , 50lbs/min of steam for a 2 inch pipe is off the chart > 150 psig.
The point is sonic flow conditions (choked flow) are not desirable as they limit the flow unless pressure is increased.

Yes table 66 shows that a 2" pipe is totally insufficient for this reactor. However the video of the inside of the shipping container in the ny teknik article http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_m ... 264361.ece shows that the internal pipe diameter that leads to the 2" outlet is much larger. If it is as much as 4" then table 66 shows that it can support the required flow at between 20 and 30 psi. In this case, the outlet pipe becomes more like a nozzle. Table 68 shows that an orifice of 2" diameter supports 1MW of steam at 25psi internal pressure when venting to atmosphere.

Your simulation shows a higher flow rate than table 68 suggests. As posted previously equation 44 from the book chapter suggests that a flow of 1MW worth of steam through 48inches of 2" pipe would drop the pressure by ~2.5psi. Your simulation appears to show a different result but the source of the difference is not apparent to me.

I am wondering why there is a difference.

[parallel]

Crawdaddy,

Your polite comments are appreciated. That makes the blog much better.

I haven't seen any direct quotes about the pipe size, but saw that Rossi was talking about two pipes going to two "heat dissipators." It is typical Rossi to come up with some surprises and the final test unit maybe quite different. He also talked about having one module on display for more accurate measurement at the time of the 1 MW demo, but I don't know if that is still on.

I've had some problems and not been following closely for a while.

[AcesHigh]

long time I dont follow the Rossi´s LERN device...

so, after all these months... any veredict? Is the effect real? Or was it a scam?