10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)
I didn't think so, but had to ask to be sure. I believe there are issues with where the thermocouples are attached still. On metal and in close proximity of each other on the exchanger seems like error waiting to happen. The sum of faulty measurements can lead to undesired results. In any case, I don't think Rossi is trying to defraud anyone any longer. I've slimmed my stance down to either he has something or he's not a very good engineer. In either case, I hope that the Universities get unfettered access to the devices to do a whole range of tests.
Except that when the device was opened there was only one outlet and the flow into that outlet was from the water filled space around the heat exhanger assembly! Your device, as convoluted as it would have to be, is totally impossible in this case as evidenced by pictures taken by the observers!tomclarke wrote:
I'll ignore the character stuff, and deal with your criticism of the thought experiment. True, it is somewhat contrived. But all the elements are possible in a genuine E-cat which has been optimised to do well in this sort of test without any malice. Rossi is not getting X100 Q, and his measured X1.2 (?) Q could easily be got on this way with fluctuating flow rates very likley in a device that is as unstable as his appears to be.
And that leaves out other errors. The point is that my error is quite subtle. You and parallel - I bet - could not think outside the box enough to see it before I pointed it out. I am sure rossi, given his limited grasp of physics, would not realise this was an issue.
Even Mats Lewan, although obviously aware of an issue, thought that his "conservative" minimum deltaT solved the problem.
I did too, till I thought about it.
Few people here realise how difficult is experimentation - and how easy to get anomalous results.
You claim I have no imagination, but you fail to do the most basic research into the topic at hand before wasting everyone's time with fantastical ravings! You think I have some irrational belief in this e-cat, wrong. I have an utterly rational belief in critical thinking. You should try it sometime.
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Carl White
- Posts: 517
- Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2009 10:44 pm
But why is this?Crawdaddy wrote:I freely admit that the e-cat has not been demonstrated conclusively in public.
Why couldn't the E-Cat have been left running overnight and into Oct. 7th?
Surely some of the scientists who had travelled all the way to Italy to observe this could have stayed for an extra day?
Surely someone would have volunteered to stay up with the E-Cat overnight?
Why always these marginal, ambiguous experiments when he should be able to just blow all doubt away with a performance of vast excess, if it works as described?
Crawdaddy,Crawdaddy wrote:Except that when the device was opened there was only one outlet and the flow into that outlet was from the water filled space around the heat exhanger assembly! Your device, as convoluted as it would have to be, is totally impossible in this case as evidenced by pictures taken by the observers!tomclarke wrote:
I'll ignore the character stuff, and deal with your criticism of the thought experiment. True, it is somewhat contrived. But all the elements are possible in a genuine E-cat which has been optimised to do well in this sort of test without any malice. Rossi is not getting X100 Q, and his measured X1.2 (?) Q could easily be got on this way with fluctuating flow rates very likley in a device that is as unstable as his appears to be.
And that leaves out other errors. The point is that my error is quite subtle. You and parallel - I bet - could not think outside the box enough to see it before I pointed it out. I am sure rossi, given his limited grasp of physics, would not realise this was an issue.
Even Mats Lewan, although obviously aware of an issue, thought that his "conservative" minimum deltaT solved the problem.
I did too, till I thought about it.
Few people here realise how difficult is experimentation - and how easy to get anomalous results.
You claim I have no imagination, but you fail to do the most basic research into the topic at hand before wasting everyone's time with fantastical ravings! You think I have some irrational belief in this e-cat, wrong. I have an utterly rational belief in critical thinking. You should try it sometime.
I am sure you can understand the physics here. My thought experiment had two paths to make the principle clear, and demosntrate esasily how Q=50 is possible.
One path, with variable flow rate, is all that is needed.
The water will naturally be hotter when the flow rate is lower.
The flow rate will naturally be variable in a device which is unstable with some internal boiling etc.
I'm getting a bit pissed off that some here are calling me incompetent blah blah blah cos they don't understand the principle behind my thought experiment above.
So. Just for those. Here is a more similar to Rossi "uncontrollable" TE-Cat. It won't perform as well, but will easily acheive Q > 1.
The idea is that you heat up to high temp a hot nugget. This could be anything, even a chamber of water. You then have a heat exchanger which passes heat from this to the water flow through the device.
All we need is for the water flow to be unstable. We naturally get deltaT higher when flow is lower. Any averaging of output, either by sampling it or having time constant of output > "stuttering time" of water in heat exchanger will then give is anomalously high deltaT.
Flow rate unstable is what you expect if the water gets heated past 100C and forms pockets of steam etc, with siphon effects and god knows what else.
I'm not even saying this is the most likely error. Perhaps bad thermocouple siting etc is more likely. But it is motivated by the experimental report from Mats in which he clearly was uncertain that the flow rate was constant, or he would have used average deltaT not min deltaT.
So. Just for those. Here is a more similar to Rossi "uncontrollable" TE-Cat. It won't perform as well, but will easily acheive Q > 1.
The idea is that you heat up to high temp a hot nugget. This could be anything, even a chamber of water. You then have a heat exchanger which passes heat from this to the water flow through the device.
All we need is for the water flow to be unstable. We naturally get deltaT higher when flow is lower. Any averaging of output, either by sampling it or having time constant of output > "stuttering time" of water in heat exchanger will then give is anomalously high deltaT.
Flow rate unstable is what you expect if the water gets heated past 100C and forms pockets of steam etc, with siphon effects and god knows what else.
I'm not even saying this is the most likely error. Perhaps bad thermocouple siting etc is more likely. But it is motivated by the experimental report from Mats in which he clearly was uncertain that the flow rate was constant, or he would have used average deltaT not min deltaT.
Last edited by tomclarke on Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
I think this is a fraud. Moreover I am sure it is. So, parallel, Crawdaddy - don't bother, if you've meant to.
I think I got an angle on this, and I must agree with Joseph Chikva here - Defkalion seem to support the fraud, here is how, IMHO:
First of all, you know what's going on in Greece? If you do not, go educate yourself. It's an economic and social mess, with a good possibility of MASSIVE EU money flowing in in the near future. Mind that.
Now suppose Defkalion has two kind of people - legit businessmen, having angles on people with money, familiar with governmental officials, who pull strings, etc. and the corrupted ones who side with our rejected genius. (To remind you, Italy and Greece are neighboring countries, both in EU - the crooks got to mix and know each other
).
Rossi finds Piantelli's device, he decides to hit the venture capitalists with a fashionable green-energy device. He then sides with Defkalion - they are to show (publicly) interest in his device, and to make people with money come to them; create an investment-supporting climate (since Rossi by himself is, how shall I put it, not credible enough). People with money give money to Defkalion, but obviously with caution, pending proof, but surely SOME amount has been invested.
Not a neglectable amount. People with political influence and money want to save their doomed country, make it a New Brave World pioneer. A Leader.
Next Rossi and Defkalion play a scene where they part with lots of noise and Rossi plays it going ballistic, while Defkalion behave like nothing really is happening - they are the respected part of the team, remember? Their R&D management, who is obviously part of the "Rossi's 13" ensures people-with-money
that everything is under control, that they got the secret from this crazy maniac and they don't need him at all. They are telling people-with-money that they are deep into R&D.
Rossi, meanwhile, continues to produce his proving-nothing demos, more and more obscuring the scene and making any technical analysis IMPOSSIBLE by definition, but creating PUBLICITY for the whole issue. Creating SUSPENCE. He also states he is about to start selling his reactor by him self.
Got it yet?!
The people-with-money, who invested in Defkalion are in panic! The money they invested is about to be wasted...
Enter Defkalion R&D scums: "Quick!", they say to the people-with-money "Rossi is about to sell his tech, you have to invest, we have to be first-to-market, or else this crazy Italian mofo, this theif, who stole the prototypes we developed(see their statement) will rob our beloved country of the gloriuos role of a Green-energy wordwide pioneer!!!". They release a statement, that looks as if they are about to sue Rossi and are about to fight for they product, and that they are cool. They are confident in their tech. Cause the people-with-money are watching.
---- The Happy Ending
In the near future, Rossi will state he finally got a customer, the deal is just about to be closed... Defkalion will push their investor to the limit of his fears, or his urge to save Greece. The money will go to Defkalion. It will be stolen (all at once, which is less likely, but possible, with the state of Greece economy and banks, or little by little, over the course of several months). Rossi's clients will change, but will always be on the verge of closing the deal, to keep Defkalion investors nervous and willing to push the development further and faster.
That's it. Rossi will get his share, to pay his debts from the PetrolDragon affair. Defkalion scums will get the major share. Greece will get the EU dismantled, because any investmnet in that country will probably be eaten by similar affairs and even if all the Germans work 25 hours a day, they won't be able to save Greece from it's own people.
Don't bother refuting all the above. It's just a story I dreamed. Wait and see.
I think I got an angle on this, and I must agree with Joseph Chikva here - Defkalion seem to support the fraud, here is how, IMHO:
First of all, you know what's going on in Greece? If you do not, go educate yourself. It's an economic and social mess, with a good possibility of MASSIVE EU money flowing in in the near future. Mind that.
Now suppose Defkalion has two kind of people - legit businessmen, having angles on people with money, familiar with governmental officials, who pull strings, etc. and the corrupted ones who side with our rejected genius. (To remind you, Italy and Greece are neighboring countries, both in EU - the crooks got to mix and know each other
).Rossi finds Piantelli's device, he decides to hit the venture capitalists with a fashionable green-energy device. He then sides with Defkalion - they are to show (publicly) interest in his device, and to make people with money come to them; create an investment-supporting climate (since Rossi by himself is, how shall I put it, not credible enough). People with money give money to Defkalion, but obviously with caution, pending proof, but surely SOME amount has been invested.
Not a neglectable amount. People with political influence and money want to save their doomed country, make it a New Brave World pioneer. A Leader.
Next Rossi and Defkalion play a scene where they part with lots of noise and Rossi plays it going ballistic, while Defkalion behave like nothing really is happening - they are the respected part of the team, remember? Their R&D management, who is obviously part of the "Rossi's 13" ensures people-with-money
that everything is under control, that they got the secret from this crazy maniac and they don't need him at all. They are telling people-with-money that they are deep into R&D.
Rossi, meanwhile, continues to produce his proving-nothing demos, more and more obscuring the scene and making any technical analysis IMPOSSIBLE by definition, but creating PUBLICITY for the whole issue. Creating SUSPENCE. He also states he is about to start selling his reactor by him self.
Got it yet?!
The people-with-money, who invested in Defkalion are in panic! The money they invested is about to be wasted...
Enter Defkalion R&D scums: "Quick!", they say to the people-with-money "Rossi is about to sell his tech, you have to invest, we have to be first-to-market, or else this crazy Italian mofo, this theif, who stole the prototypes we developed(see their statement) will rob our beloved country of the gloriuos role of a Green-energy wordwide pioneer!!!". They release a statement, that looks as if they are about to sue Rossi and are about to fight for they product, and that they are cool. They are confident in their tech. Cause the people-with-money are watching.
---- The Happy Ending
In the near future, Rossi will state he finally got a customer, the deal is just about to be closed... Defkalion will push their investor to the limit of his fears, or his urge to save Greece. The money will go to Defkalion. It will be stolen (all at once, which is less likely, but possible, with the state of Greece economy and banks, or little by little, over the course of several months). Rossi's clients will change, but will always be on the verge of closing the deal, to keep Defkalion investors nervous and willing to push the development further and faster.
That's it. Rossi will get his share, to pay his debts from the PetrolDragon affair. Defkalion scums will get the major share. Greece will get the EU dismantled, because any investmnet in that country will probably be eaten by similar affairs and even if all the Germans work 25 hours a day, they won't be able to save Greece from it's own people.
Don't bother refuting all the above. It's just a story I dreamed. Wait and see.
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stefanbanev
- Posts: 183
- Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2011 3:12 am
All points you've made make a perfect sense... however, for fraud it is TOO badly orchestrated. It would be actually easier to invent LENR then to maintain such uncontrollable scheme with so many involved people with no skin in the game... you give too mach credits to Rossi...polyill wrote:I think this is a fraud. Moreover I am sure it is. So, ....
Except that the inlet of the heat exchanger had an attatched flow meter that showed a high continuous flow.tomclarke wrote:I'm getting a bit pissed off that some here are calling me incompetent blah blah blah cos they don't understand the principle behind my though experiment above.
So. Just for those. Here is a more similar to Rossi "uncontrollable" TE-Cat. It won't perform as well, but will easily acheive Q > 1.
The idea is that you heat up to high temp a hot nugget. This could be anything, even a chamber of water. You then have a heat exchanger which passes heat from this to the water flow through the device.
All we need is for the water flow to be unstable. We naturally get deltaT higher when flow is lower. Any averaging of output, either by sampling it or having time constant of output > "stuttering time" of water in heat exchanger will then give ius anomalously high deltaT.
Flow rate unstable is what you expect if the water gets heated past 100C and forms pockets of steam etc, with siphon effects and god knows what else.
I'm not even saying this is the most likely error. Perhaps bad thermocouple siting etc is more likely. But it is motivated by the experimental report from Mats in which he clearly was uncertain that the flow rate was constant, or he would have used average deltaT not min deltaT.
In the other circuit the pump was the same trusty peristaltic pump that has been used in most of the demonstrations. As has been discussed to death, peristaltic pumps are extremely precise, even under pressure (80psi for this model), and if the flow changes it is immediately evident because the interval between strokes can be heard to change. Furthermore, if the observed data was the result of changing flow rates, poor thermocouple placement, and the observed internal configuration of the device ( which was disassembled by a team of professors until midnight on the date of the test, look forward to those written reports) the pump would have to continually lower its flow rate over the course of the "self-sustaining" period.
Given the available data this mechanism of fraud is not plausible. Who knows, maybe the written reports of the observing professors who disassembled the device after the test will shed new light on things.
Ah, I was pretty exited of my dream, and so I just didn't phrase it right, Rossi is NOT the main character here, he is merely the black sheep (again?stefanbanev wrote:All points you've made make a perfect sense... however, for fraud it is TOO badly orchestrated. It would be actually easier to invent LENR then to maintain such uncontrollable scheme with so many involved people with no skin in the game... you give too mach credit to Rossi...polyill wrote:I think this is a fraud. Moreover I am sure it is. So, ....
) and might very well being forced into this game by the people who own his debts or he might be just delusional. Now, on the part of "two many people" - I do not agree. All you need is:
1. The R&D manager who will lie. The engineers beneath him - are on the verge of being fired, loosing a well paid hi-tech job is anywhere near their preference. They will close eyes readily.
2. The finance person at Defkalion, preferably the CEO, who will participate the scam.
3. A "respectful" government official, who will vouch for all this scheme to the people-with-money. Greece is a MESS, lots of well placed political butts are about to loose everything, they will do anything to save themselves. Politics, you know.
15:53 Power to the resistance was set to zero. A device “producing frequencies” was switched on.
What's this device and why was it on throughout the self-sustained mode? It appears to be turned on at the beginning of self-sustained mode and never switched off until (assumingly) the end of the experiment based on what's reported in the PDF.
What's this device and why was it on throughout the self-sustained mode? It appears to be turned on at the beginning of self-sustained mode and never switched off until (assumingly) the end of the experiment based on what's reported in the PDF.
Microwave oven perhaps?ScottL wrote:15:53 Power to the resistance was set to zero. A device “producing frequencies” was switched on.
What's this device and why was it on throughout the self-sustained mode? It appears to be turned on at the beginning of self-sustained mode and never switched off until (assumingly) the end of the experiment based on what's reported in the PDF.
Forgive me. In past Rossi demos, we have Rossi, or even observers, saying things like this which turn out to be completely unproven, because they were assumed not measured.Crawdaddy wrote:Except that the inlet of the heat exchanger had an attatched flow meter that showed a high continuous flow.tomclarke wrote:I'm getting a bit pissed off that some here are calling me incompetent blah blah blah cos they don't understand the principle behind my though experiment above.
So. Just for those. Here is a more similar to Rossi "uncontrollable" TE-Cat. It won't perform as well, but will easily acheive Q > 1.
The idea is that you heat up to high temp a hot nugget. This could be anything, even a chamber of water. You then have a heat exchanger which passes heat from this to the water flow through the device.
All we need is for the water flow to be unstable. We naturally get deltaT higher when flow is lower. Any averaging of output, either by sampling it or having time constant of output > "stuttering time" of water in heat exchanger will then give ius anomalously high deltaT.
Flow rate unstable is what you expect if the water gets heated past 100C and forms pockets of steam etc, with siphon effects and god knows what else.
I'm not even saying this is the most likely error. Perhaps bad thermocouple siting etc is more likely. But it is motivated by the experimental report from Mats in which he clearly was uncertain that the flow rate was constant, or he would have used average deltaT not min deltaT.
In the other circuit the pump was the same trusty peristaltic pump that has been used in most of the demonstrations. As has been discussed to death, peristaltic pumps are extremely precise, even under pressure (80psi for this model), and if the flow changes it is immediately evident because the interval between strokes can be heard to change. Furthermore, if the observed data was the result of changing flow rates, poor thermocouple placement, and the observed internal configuration of the device ( which was disassembled by a team of professors until midnight on the date of the test, look forward to those written reports) the pump would have to continually lower its flow rate over the course of the "self-sustaining" period.
Given the available data this mechanism of fraud is not plausible. Who knows, maybe the written reports of the observing professors who disassembled the device after the test will shed new light on things.
So how is the continuous flow verified? Who reports this, and do they provide graphs of flow rate on a better than 1s basis (since fluctuations of a say 1/3 a second would be enough to destroy the results). If flow rate is set by peri pump, who says this, how do we knoe it is not "adjusted" to keep the device stable. Just like in previous demos unacknowledged power was input to the device to keep the temp high? (We know this from careful analysis of video evidence).
Sheesh.
OK, for our "can't possibly be wrong if this works" thought experiment (for a device designed by skeptics that would convince skeptics) I suggest the heat be exchanged into a giant pool of water that just sits there and doesn't flow anywhere.
That will make measurement very, very simple. If the increase in total heat of the body of water is 3x the inputs, we all agree Rossi fusion is real. Everyone can bring their own thermometers.
OK, for our "can't possibly be wrong if this works" thought experiment (for a device designed by skeptics that would convince skeptics) I suggest the heat be exchanged into a giant pool of water that just sits there and doesn't flow anywhere.
That will make measurement very, very simple. If the increase in total heat of the body of water is 3x the inputs, we all agree Rossi fusion is real. Everyone can bring their own thermometers.
n*kBolt*Te = B**2/(2*mu0) and B^.25 loss scaling? Or not so much? Hopefully we'll know soon...
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stefanbanev
- Posts: 183
- Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2011 3:12 am
Well, it looks too conspiratorial for me. There are so many simpler ways to make money unless kind of masochistic motives behind. This specific "cold fusion" domain has too negative "P&F" context to use it for such scheme. Self-delusion is still possible with random self-organized scam around with many naive victims involved, yes it is possible but I would asses it as 20% chances otherwise, I need to lower down (or move up) considerably the threshold of people stupidity...polyill wrote:Ah, I was pretty exited of my dream, and so I just didn't phrase it right, Rossi is NOT the main character here, he is merely the black sheep (again?stefanbanev wrote:All points you've made make a perfect sense... however, for fraud it is TOO badly orchestrated. It would be actually easier to invent LENR then to maintain such uncontrollable scheme with so many involved people with no skin in the game... you give too mach credit to Rossi...polyill wrote:I think this is a fraud. Moreover I am sure it is. So, ....
Now, on the part of "two many people" - I do not agree. All you need is:
1. The R&D manager who will lie. The engineers beneath him - are on the verge of being fired, loosing a well paid hi-tech job is anywhere near their preference. They will close eyes readily.
2. The finance person at Defkalion, preferably the CEO, who will participate the scam.
3. A "respectful" government official, who will vouch for all this scheme to the people-with-money. Greece is a MESS, lots of well placed political butts are about to loose everything, they will do anything to save themselves. Politics, you know.
Last edited by stefanbanev on Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.