10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

[Joseph Chikva]

I think people, who type 4 paragraphs in CAPS are unstable.

I think people talking about psychology when the talk is about technology have nothing to do with discussing issue.

Regarding Rossi, he again has shown nothing providing evidence of viability of his magic device. Regardless to his psychology condition.
And Mr., please, do not write me more private messages in Russian and with mistakes.
As well as without mistakes too.

[Skipjack]

Every time he writes about "snakes" he uses CAPS. Maybe snakes dont like caps, who knows.

I noticed that he usually writes his response in CAPS, to separate it from the questions, he quoted.
Not the right way to do it, but then he probably does not know any other way.

[sparkyy0007]

Where did you see the details of the thermocouple application? At least there wouldn't be much stray DC voltage with everything connected by water.

http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@es ... 52537.html

This is a standard cheap non-isolated k thermocouple. Very good accuracy and percision, I use them all the time.

The problem has nothing to do with stray DC, it has to do with 2 intrinsic
and unwanted thermocouples forming at the metal/thermocouple interface generating a voltage between them.
This is no problem, unless you connect them both to the same meter.

[polyill]

Chikva, I guess it's hard to keep your frustration on the inside, huh? You want to make our discussion public? Just say a word. I'll translate and publish your messages

As to the "regardless" part, well... since Rossi consistently denies us of any scientifically meaningful results, I ponder over the possible reasons of such behavior. What's wrong with that? To remind you, this thread is in "News" section of the forum.

I think, you don't think enough, before you post, mate. Chill.

[parallel]

sparkyy0007

The problem has nothing to do with stray DC, it has to do with 2 intrinsic
and unwanted thermocouples forming at the metal/thermocouple interface generating a voltage between them.
This is no problem, unless you connect them both to the same meter.

That doesn't happen with the setup used. The instrument has four channels (two used) that are well insulated from each other.
What on earth are you talking about?

ps. The arrow used in your picture is deliberately misleading. The effect of the position has been covered by Rossi himself and keep in mind there were a lot of neutral observers there too. I suppose we will hear from some of them in time.

[sparkyy0007]

sparkyy0007

The problem has nothing to do with stray DC, it has to do with 2 intrinsic
and unwanted thermocouples forming at the metal/thermocouple interface generating a voltage between them.
This is no problem, unless you connect them both to the same meter.

That doesn't happen with the setup used. The instrument has four channels (two used) that are well insulated from each other.
What on earth are you talking about?

ps. The arrow used in your picture is deliberately misleading. The effect of the position has been covered by Rossi himself and keep in mind there were a lot of neutral observers there too. I suppose we will hear from some of them in time.

From your polite response it is obvious you have no experience with cheap multi-channel thermometers.
I have no interest in educating you on the particulars and limitations of these instruments.

ps. The arrow used in your picture is deliberately misleading.

Now you are just grasping, it's not my picture.
It's a blowup of http://www.redmatica.com/media/Thermo2.jpg
from Vortex.
At the end of the video (see previous "thin wall pipe pix") Rossi points at that exact location and says, here is where the thermocouple contacts.
Don't beleve me, look for your self, it's just at the end of the video.

[Luzr]

At 19:25 the H2 was allowed to escape and the cooling water rate increased.

And those are these little details that always spoil the thing... Why was water rate increased? And why it took so darn long to cool down after increasing water rate?

It would be much more convincing if hydrogen was depresurized and temperature would drop, with the same water rate. Always adding more variables and more dependencies seems like trying to fugde something.

I take this as a classic example of how the skeptics find fault with everything that Rossi does. Presumably the E-Cat doesn't stop producing heat immediately after the hydrogen is vented because enough remains embedded in the nickel.
So Luzr questions why it takes so long to cool and then in the next sentence wonders why the cooling water is increased to speed it up. Priceless. The witnesses have no need to go home that night.

First of all, I am sceptic only as far as I have to be sceptic, as all science is defined "sceptical" by definitiion (oocam razor, you know the thing, right?). I still believe 60:40 for e-cat to be real.

Anyway, to answer your accusation: If I would be there to witness this monumental groundbreaking expriment, I would gladly wait DAYS, ignoring all my needs to go home, to witness different behaviour of e-cat with and without hydrogen in reaction chamber.

E-cat running at 110C for 3 hours, then having to cool down 35 minutes from 110C to 100C at INCREASED water flow, that sounds suspicios, sorry. Even if I still hope for e-cat to be real.

[Skipjack]

E-cat running at 110C for 3 hours, then having to cool down 35 minutes from 110C to 100C at INCREASED water flow, that sounds suspicios, sorry.

OK, what exactly is the problem there? You increase the waterflow, the E- cat gets colder. Sounds logical, no?

[Giorgio]

Giorgio,
Where did you see the details of the thermocouple application? At least there wouldn't be much stray DC voltage with everything connected by water. The accuracy doesn't matter that much providing it was enough to show that the E-Cat produced kWs of excess heat with the power turned off. For nearly four hours the E-Cat produced ~ 3kw and showed no signs of slowing down. You simply can't accept that is definite proof that it works and will nit-pick yourself to death rather than accept that.
If he had run it all night you would then say, "Ah it only works for 12 hours and won't run for a full day." The only way you will accept it works is after enough E-Cats are out in the market for many months.

The temperature probe is not in contact with the liquid, it is sticked on the external side of the pipeline under the insulator
Here are the pictures that he sent me by e-mail:
http://www.redmatica.com/media/Thermo1.jpg
http://www.redmatica.com/media/Thermo2.jpg
http://www.redmatica.com/media/Thermo3.jpg

You can clearly see the position of the sensor in the first 2 picture, in the third one the guy made a schematics of his idea.
He suggests that the probe placed in that position will sense part of the gradient temperature that is present on the collector block as one side is 120C (inlet) and the other is 30C (outlet). In principle he is right, but there are not enough info on the collector gaskets to correctly evaluate the propagation of the thermal gradient.

What he didn't think of (but which can make a big difference) is that the collector will not only have a temperature gradient over his body, but will also radiate large amount of heat from the 120C side. This heat will be trapped under the insulator, but than, the sensor is under the same insulator at few cm of distance.......
If this heat source makes up for 1 Degree of the measured dT, than it will be a whopping 20% decrease in the theoretical Thermal out.
If it makes 2 or more degrees.... well you got the idea.

[parallel]

sparkyy0007

From your polite response it is obvious you have no experience with cheap multi-channel thermometers.
I have no interest in educating you on the particulars and limitations of these instruments.

You are quite wrong (again.) Apart from many more years of experience than you in an industry that relied on temperature measurements, I once instrumented a whole plant to find out what was happening in detail. This involved measuring more than a 1000 different temperatures every three minutes for months.
You don't know what you are talking about.

[Giorgio]

sparkyy0007

From your polite response it is obvious you have no experience with cheap multi-channel thermometers.
I have no interest in educating you on the particulars and limitations of these instruments.

You are quite wrong (again.) Apart from many more years of experience than you in an industry that relied on temperature measurements, I once instrumented a whole plant to find out what was happening in detail. This involved measuring more than a 1000 different temperatures every three minutes for months.
You don't know what you are talking about.

He is right, check the video.

[Luzr]

E-cat running at 110C for 3 hours, then having to cool down 35 minutes from 110C to 100C at INCREASED water flow, that sounds suspicios, sorry.

OK, what exactly is the problem there?

It is too long.

Very rough estimate: If 'normal' water flow would be 1/6 of "increased" water flow and there would be some quirk in setup, e-cat could have seem "self-sustained" while the correct definition would be "pre-heated".

As demonstrated by placing termocouple on heat exchanger metal, or choosing only 5 degrees delta, the likelyhood of "quirk is setup" is unfortunately quite high.

(All that said, I still maintain 60:40 pro-ecat opionion)

[sparkyy0007]

sparkyy0007

The problem has nothing to do with stray DC, it has to do with 2 intrinsic
and unwanted thermocouples forming at the metal/thermocouple interface generating a voltage between them.
This is no problem, unless you connect them both to the same meter.

That doesn't happen with the setup used. The instrument has four channels (two used) that are well insulated from each other.
What on earth are you talking about?

Ok here's why:
The thermocouples are connected to 4 differential amplifyers located in the instrument.
These amplifyers have a common mode range that must not be exceeded. To prevent
this one leg of each thermocouple is tied through a hi z to a point in the range of the differential amps.

When multiple non isolated thermocouples are attached to a common conductive surface, a second ground is formed
and any voltage between can cause errors. This second voltage is the seebeck effect between the thermocouple and the metal base it is in contact with.
The solution is to use isolated thermocouples.

[Joseph Chikva]

Chikva, I guess it's hard to keep your frustration on the inside, huh? You want to make our discussion public? Just say a word. I'll translate and publish your messages

There are not my messages but there were my quite adequate answers on your spam. As your messages (not one) was not welcomed.
Regarding Rossi, less interesting what drives him. His device does not work as claimed. It's enough.

[sparkyy0007]

sparkyy0007

From your polite response it is obvious you have no experience with cheap multi-channel thermometers.
I have no interest in educating you on the particulars and limitations of these instruments.

You are quite wrong (again.) Apart from many more years of experience than you in an industry that relied on temperature measurements, I once instrumented a whole plant to find out what was happening in detail. This involved measuring more than a 1000 different temperatures every three minutes for months.
You don't know what you are talking about.

You used these cheap junk non-isolated thermocouples to instrument a plant!!??.
Must have been some plant

And monitored it with hand-held thermometers
Got any pictures?

Apart from many more years of experience than you

And how the hell would you know that.