10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

[Giorgio]

If this is the case, I suspect Bushnell will be lumped in with Krivit soon in Rossi's book.

So we will have a snake with two heads now...... looks like the story is starting to take a mythological twist. The scientist's Hydra VS the Herculean Rossi!

[Giorgio]

But how many times has this supposedly happened already? And every time it does, it seems the results are even more questionable than before.

Unfortunately is not clear if also this time the test will be able to clarify anything.
I have been reported that the dT on the secondary circuit is probably going to be less than 10 Degree.
If this holds true is yet another nonsense experiment from Rossi and Co.

Unless they keep a dT on the secondary circuit of 50-60 Degree the whole test will be quite meaningless.

[KitemanSA]

Unless they keep a dT on the secondary circuit of 50-60 Degree the whole test will be quite meaningless.

Care to explain your reasoning here?

[Giorgio]

Unless they keep a dT on the secondary circuit of 50-60 Degree the whole test will be quite meaningless.

Care to explain your reasoning here?

Having a small dT on the secondary loop will make all the measurements of the experimental variables more prone to bring an error when calculating the removed heat from the primary circuit.
And I'll add something else, flow MUST be turbulent inside the secondary circuit to give a meaningful result when measuring temperatures of inlet and outlet.

But really, if he wanted to make a proper experiment he could have just taken a 5M3 tank, filled it with 4500 lt of water and placed the primary circuit at its bottom with an external (bottom to top) recirculating pump.

4500 Lt *60 degree dT = 315Kw/H.
If he experiments with the new unit composed by four 3Kw module that means 25h of work time (more or less). If he experiments with a single 3KW module just reduce the mass of water to 1/4.

Clean and easy setup that no one can object.

[parallel]

Giorgio,

It is easy to measure water temperatures to 0.1°C

You would make a fortune if you can show how to get water traveling in a heat exchanger at that speed to be laminar. New design of airplanes overnight.

Your water in a tank idea would be derided by others claiming that the temperature was altered by the ambient temperature. If I recall correctly, you were one of those complaining about the effect of ambient temperature on the water with Levi's 18 hour test.

The only thing one can be sure of is that some critics will find fault with whatever happens in the Oct 6th test.

[Giorgio]

Giorgio,

It is easy to measure water temperatures to 0.1°C

And how does this relate to the other variables?

You would make a fortune if you can show how to get water traveling in a heat exchanger at that speed to be laminar. New design of airplanes overnight.

At what speed? Do you know the heat exchange parameters? if yes please update me because for what I know no one has any detailed info about them till now.
It will be just a matter of choosing a proper pipeline diameter for the water flow to have a fully laminar heat exchange that might falsify all the results.
And for your knowledge, some industries DO require laminar flow heat exchangers (at least from one side) when it is necessary to have the lowest possible pressure drop or when the product gets ruined in turbulent flow (like many polyimers and glues).
You can charge an overhead for building them, but they hardly make you rich.

Your water in a tank idea would be derided by others claiming that the temperature was altered by the ambient temperature.

Ambient temperature influence with a dT of 60 Degree?
Maybe if the experiment is made into a Swedish sauna, otherwise I doubt....

If I recall correctly, you were one of those complaining about the effect of ambient temperature on the water with Levi's 18 hour test.

You are correct, as room temperature was 25-30 degree and water tap was 15 degree than water will absorb part of the air heat.
But if you have a dT above room temperature than this cannot occur, which is my point.

The only thing one can be sure of is that some critics will find fault with whatever happens in the Oct 6th test.

The more your experimental setup is weak and prone to errors the more it will be subject to criticisms. This is normal in every field of our life IMHO.

Anyhow, let's see the experimental set up of the 6th of October, maybe I have been reported wrong info and he will surprise us all with a sound experiment.

[Joseph Chikva]

Giorgio,

It is easy to measure water temperatures to 0.1°C

You would make a fortune if you can show how to get water traveling in a heat exchanger at that speed to be laminar. New design of airplanes overnight.

Your water in a tank idea would be derided by others claiming that the temperature was altered by the ambient temperature. If I recall correctly, you were one of those complaining about the effect of ambient temperature on the water with Levi's 18 hour test.

The only thing one can be sure of is that some critics will find fault with whatever happens in the Oct 6th test.

You are right, it is easy to measure water temperature with high enough accuracy.
But this does not deny the fact that test/demo made for Krivit has not been conducted properly and provided claimed data of production 5kW.
I do not know anything about Levi's test.
But do not seek hostility. Any results positive or negative will be accepted.
Let's wait a few days.

[parallel]

Giorgio,

And how does this relate to the other variables?

Makes it easier to measure the only other variable that matters - the rate of water flow.

[Giorgio]

Giorgio,

And how does this relate to the other variables?

Makes it easier to measure the only other variable that matters - the rate of water flow.

I never said the opposite and also no, it does not make it more simple, as the two are not dependent from each other.

[sparkyy0007]

I can see why Rossi would choose the lowest secondary temperature,
higher primary to secondary log mean temperature difference, more of the steam will condense.
If the secondary runs 60C , some vapor will leave the primary
due to the hot side boundary layer over 60C, maybe 70 or 80, and if they don't account for it,
it will hurt the excess energy calcs.If the primary is a pressurized
system and runs at higher temperature, it won't be as bad for the numbers.

[bk78]

It is easy to measure water temperatures to 0.1°C

If I pick i.e. this fluke thermometer, error is ±[0.05% + 0.3°C] PLUS ± 1.1°C for the probe. This goes twice for 2 thermometers. Do not mix up resolution with accuracy. So yes, a dT of 50°C would be more comfortable to measure.
http://www.fluke.com/fluke/usen/electri ... ?PID=56085

Your water in a tank idea would be derided by others claiming that the temperature was altered by the ambient temperature. If I recall correctly, you were one of those complaining about the effect of ambient temperature on the water with Levi's 18 hour test.

Ambient temperature would not have introduced errors in the kW range. (Besides: When Rossi was confronted with the fact that the steam from his second test was nowhere near his claimed power level, he tried to explain that by radiation losses of the hose, calculating an order of magnitude too much http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/06/defkal ... -238018567 ).
Actually a test with a tank would be most convincing. Better than a test with just 2 hoses for inflow and output, where nobody can look into, i.e. whether another hose with warm water (or some chemical) is hidden inside the hose for input (or a hose with cold water inside the output). Such a test is, of course, impractical for a 1MW plant.

I can see why Rossi would choose the lowest secondary temperature,
higher primary to secondary log mean temperature difference, more of the steam will condense.
If the secondary runs 60C , some vapor will leave the primary
due to the hot side boundary layer over 60C, maybe 70 or 80, and if they don't account for it, it will hurt the excess energy calcs.

Because the primary circuit is supposedly a closed loop, this energy will not be lost. Instead, it would reduce the electricity consumption for heating.

[sparkyy0007]

Because the primary circuit is supposedly a closed loop, this energy will not be lost. Instead, it would reduce the electricity consumption for heating.

If it's closed, the condensate should be received by some sort of a reservoir
where the pump can pick up. The residual steam from the primary loop must
condense before it can be pumped back into the reactor.
Where will this heat go?

[Giorgio]

He will probably use a thermal oil instead of water so he can avoid the condensation issue. IMBW thought.

[sparkyy0007]

He will probably use a thermal oil instead of water so he can avoid the condensation issue. IMBW thought.

I think it will be coke, but we'll see.

THE MEASUREMENTS WILL BE MADE ON LIQUID WATER. WE WILL HAVE THE STEAM PRODUCED FROM THE REACTOR THAT WILL WORK IN A CLOSED LOOP, WHICH IS THE PRIMARY CIRCUIT, AND THE STEAM ITSELF EXCHANGES HEAT WITH THE LIQUID WATER IN A SECONDARY CLOSED LOOP, SO THAT THE WATER IS HEATED BY THE STEAM THROUGH THE WALLS OF A HEAT EXCHANGER.
http://blog.newenergytimes.com/2011/09/ ... -research/

Nope, its steam for the primary.

[parallel]

Giorgio,

I never said the opposite and also no, it does not make it more simple, as the two are not dependent from each other.

If you have a low dT the flow rate will be higher and thus easier to measure.

It is quite possible to measure temperatures to better than 0.1°C accuracy.
It is not necessary to do so in this case. All that is needed is to show that the excess heat is more than x6 the input electrical energy. I much doubt that the margin will be so close that temperature measurement error will be a factor.

Enough already. The test is only a few days off.