10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

[ScottL]

Skeptics;

There has been many on this blog as well as other blogs that are demanding that Andrea Rossi provide accurate scientific testing validating the E-cat. He has been very consistent over the last couple of years stating that his plan for validation is to sell working units to customers and to do this after a 1MW power plant has been tested. Given the history of Cold fusion, current mindsets and turning upside down a 2 trillion/year industry; I think he has decided on a reasonable path.

Remember that the Wright Brothers were not believed by many in the press or scientific community even though they had video and eye witnesses reports. A solid scientific test that validates the E-cat is no guarantee that this will convince many of the skeptics. Many will claim that the data was manipulated or find some kind of fault with the test. Some will be paid to shoot holes in the data and create doubts and have political or financial reasons to oppose it.

Rossi has never said that he would not supply scientific validation, it was more the timing of when he would provide these tests. He believes that incorporation into the marketplace is the best evidence for acceptance of these units. The scientific tests at the end of October are more for the customers than the scientific community. I think Rossi deserves to roll out his invention that he has labored on for years and used his own finances to produce, in any manner that he desires. We should all be patient to wait for the test data that will be forthcoming at the end of October. The marketplace will be the ultimate validation of the E-cat.

Sure you could compare Rossi to the Wright Brothers had they put up a very long black sheet to keep everyone from seeing the flight. Unfortunately for you I guess, that didn't happen, and so your comparison is not only wrong, but offensive!

Rossi currently holds the patent for his device and only needs a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_patent chemical patent for his secret sauce to secure his intellectual property. If he's dead set on not proving his device to the scientific community, he darn well better in October.

The zealotry on this thread is amazing so if the zealots agree I propose the following: If Rossi delivers a functioning 1MW device to a prominent U.S. company (like the claim, and not RossiLeo Tech or god knows what next) I will apologize for my skepticism, but....if he fails to do so you are in return required to apologize to the forum for your faith.

Note: I want a real company like GM, Ford, PGE, GE, hell if it goes in a Whirlpool factory, I'll accept it, but no Dekathalon/LeoCorp/Dragon/eestore/..etc. companies he forms or has his friends form.

[parallel]

ScottL,

The zealotry on this thread is amazing so if the zealots agree I propose the following: If Rossi delivers a functioning 1MW device to a prominent U.S. company (like the claim, and not RossiLeo Tech or god knows what next) I will apologize for my skepticism, but....if he fails to do so you are in return required to apologize to the forum for your faith.

I would expect nothing less from you. The going in position for any new form of energy is a >99.9% chance it will fail. It takes a real genius to forecast the probable result. Some idiots at DOE make a living from it.

[ScottL]

ScottL,

The zealotry on this thread is amazing so if the zealots agree I propose the following: If Rossi delivers a functioning 1MW device to a prominent U.S. company (like the claim, and not RossiLeo Tech or god knows what next) I will apologize for my skepticism, but....if he fails to do so you are in return required to apologize to the forum for your faith.

I would expect nothing less from you. The going in position for any new form of energy is a >99.9% chance it will fail. It takes a real genius to forecast the probable result. Some idiots at DOE make a living from it.

I think the proposal is fine, don't you?

[olivier]

The going in position for any new form of energy is a >99.9% chance it will fail.

This is typically what Nassim Nicholas Taieb calls "a positive black swan". Something highly improbable with a very high reward (for Rossi and for mankind) it it succeeds and a low cost (nearly nothing for me who only invested some time in reading a few docs and posts) if it fails. There is nothing wrong with being exposed to a positive black swan and liberty consists in being able to do all that does not harm others. So go Rossi, go! Even if I do not much believe in your chance of success.

[Rick Meisinger]

Rossi's got all the benefit of the doubt he deserves at this point. He has people's attention with his mysterious black box. That's no more or less than it deserves... And if it turns out to be vaporware, he will deserve some serious penalty for swindling so much of the world's attention in vain.

Although he has not yet garnered the attention of the general public yet; I do agree that if this turns out to be an intentional scam that there should be some serious consequences.

Sure you could compare Rossi to the Wright Brothers had they put up a very long black sheet to keep everyone from seeing the flight. Unfortunately for you I guess, that didn't happen, and so your comparison is not only wrong, but offensive!

My intention was to note that past advances in technology have not been well received by either the press or academia and that a proof of that advance does not always translate into acceptance. Also, doubt if the Wright's were getting death threats or were facing the political forces that cold fusion is up against.

Rossi currently holds the patent for his device and only needs a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_patent chemical patent for his secret sauce to secure his intellectual property. If he's dead set on not proving his device to the scientific community, he darn well better in October.

The zealotry on this thread is amazing so if the zealots agree I propose the following: If Rossi delivers a functioning 1MW device to a prominent U.S. company (like the claim, and not RossiLeo Tech or god knows what next) I will apologize for my skepticism, but....if he fails to do so you are in return required to apologize to the forum for your faith.

Note: I want a real company like GM, Ford, PGE, GE, hell if it goes in a Whirlpool factory, I'll accept it, but no Dekathalon/LeoCorp/Dragon/eestore/..etc. companies he forms or has his friends form.

I am not so concerned who his customers are but that his 1,000 or so reported orders continue to get filled and that the customers are satisfied. To pull this off he will need to have a strong financial backer. I am concerned that his financial backers are strong and do not turn out to be another Defkalion. I do agree with you on that point.

Cold Fusion, LENR, or whatever title you put on it, if it shows any evidence that it can provide a new energy source, should be supported in every way possible. The opposition to it, even in the face of multiple sources of evidence that excess energy has been produced, has continued to amaze me. Yes, we should be wary of those who would attempt to formulate a money making scam. I believe most supporters of Rossi's E-cat are not doing so with blind faith and realize that he has more to prove. It is more of a hope for the future and in a technology that has shown multiple and real signs of being a potential new source of energy.

[ScottL]

Rick, we aren't discussing Rossi supporters as a whole, but the 1 or 2 here on this forum. I understand at this stage in the discussion, they have an emotional investment after making the arguments they have made, but at some point you have to come clean. All I've stated previous like many others is that they keep an open but skeptical mind to the claims. This just has not been the case with some people like Parallel.

[Betruger]

Rossi's got all the benefit of the doubt he deserves at this point. He has people's attention with his mysterious black box. That's no more or less than it deserves... And if it turns out to be vaporware, he will deserve some serious penalty for swindling so much of the world's attention in vain.

Although he has not yet garnered the attention of the general public yet; I do agree that if this turns out to be an intentional scam that there should be some serious consequences.

My thoughts exactly, and despite what Parallel has said/will say, that's as close to ill will as I have for Rossi.

Cold Fusion, LENR, or whatever title you put on it, if it shows any evidence that it can provide a new energy source, should be supported in every way possible. The opposition to it, even in the face of multiple sources of evidence that excess energy has been produced, has continued to amaze me. Yes, we should be wary of those who would attempt to formulate a money making scam.

Right - progress in understanding how to make it all work to our benefit (IOW the engineering picture) is all that matters. We need to see this thing work at the very least, but ideally to advance the theoretical understanding too. So when after so long we get nothing but hand waving with naught to sink our teeth into ... :

I believe most supporters of Rossi's E-cat are not doing so with blind faith and realize that he has more to prove. It is more of a hope for the future and in a technology that has shown multiple and real signs of being a potential new source of energy.

Faith or not, it is blind. Completely regardless of who Rossi is, what his past is, etc, that blindness has mine and others' attention because it's exactly what must be remedied. By principle.

[Rick Meisinger]

Rick, we aren't discussing Rossi supporters as a whole, but the 1 or 2 here on this forum. I understand at this stage in the discussion, they have an emotional investment after making the arguments they have made, but at some point you have to come clean.

I believe that I have came clean and clearly stated my position in my above post.

Cold Fusion, LENR, or whatever title you put on it, if it shows any evidence that it can provide a new energy source, should be supported in every way possible. The opposition to it, even in the face of multiple sources of evidence that excess energy has been produced, has continued to amaze me. Yes, we should be wary of those who would attempt to formulate a money making scam.

Right - progress in understanding how to make it all work to our benefit (IOW the engineering picture) is all that matters. We need to see this thing work at the very least, but ideally to advance the theoretical understanding too. So when after so long we get nothing but hand waving with naught to sink our teeth into ... :

I believe most supporters of Rossi's E-cat are not doing so with blind faith and realize that he has more to prove. It is more of a hope for the future and in a technology that has shown multiple and real signs of being a potential new source of energy.

Faith or not, it is blind. Completely regardless of who Rossi is, what his past is, etc, that blindness has mine and others' attention because it's exactly what must be remedied. By principle.

Yes we have not seen everything yet, but given the extraordinary set of conditions that researchers in this field are facing, they should be given the patience from observers on the timing of the release of information. This assumes that they are using their own time and money to do the research and development.

In Rossi's case, he has stated from day one that he would allow comprehensive testing to be done once the 1MW plant was completed. He has also said that he believes that he has a clear understanding of the theoretical operations of the E-cat which he says that he is also likely to release after the 1MW plant is completed.

[parallel]

ScottL

All I've stated previous like many others is that they keep an open but skeptical mind to the claims. This just has not been the case with some people like Parallel.

You are a wrong, rude, ignorant twit.
Apart from saying Rossi has a patent (valid in this country, which he doesn't) you said you would quit posting. So you can't even keep your word.

[ScottL]

That would be an attack and a violation of the forum rules. Please refrain from personal attacks/name calling, this forum is for the big kids. As for the topic:

Rossi has a questionable past, do you deny it?
Rossi has provided no third party overview or independent experimentation, do you deny it?
You believe Rossi's device works, do you deny it?

My answers to the above would be:

1. Yes its questionable.
2. He has done no independent review (his choice)
3. I don't believe him, but am trying to keep an open yet skeptical mind about it all.

You've also avoided agreeing to my proposal which I'm 100% willing to do if I'm wrong. I will completely apologize to you and any Rossi supporter I offended if his device if found to work and a large well known company uses it. I mean come on, if it works, it's a revolutionary device, if not, well yeah...

[sparkyy0007]

ScottL

All I've stated previous like many others is that they keep an open but skeptical mind to the claims. This just has not been the case with some people like Parallel.

You are a wrong, rude, ignorant twit.
Apart from saying Rossi has a patent (valid in this country, which he doesn't) you said you would quit posting. So you can't even keep your word.

Your response says more about you than him.

[Crawdaddy]

Rossi promised EEStore to the U.S. Military previously and didn't deliver, do you deny it?

If you are trying to call someone out, at least get your facts strait.

This sort of laziness is truly sad to read.

[stefanbanev]

Rossi promised EEStore to the U.S. Military previously and didn't deliver, do you deny it?

You forgot to mention Rossi failure with Steorn as well; such a scam indeed...

[ladajo]

FOr the record, I want Rossi to succeed (as I have said before), but I do not currently rate his chance of success as high. To many questions remain for me in his demos. If he does succeed, I am fully willing to congratulate him, and reconsider my doubts during the run up, to the point of an apology if I find that my reasoning was in error.
However, I do not think this is about apologies. It is about critical thinking and honest opinion. To be required to apologize for giving something an honest effort, does not make sense. I have no emotional investment either way in his success or failure. I will say that there have been times where some here have presented Rossi arguments and comments based on emotion, vice reason. If I have crossed that line, I apologize.

I am waiting for the 12 year-old Kitchen Experiment by Rossi where he proves himself right or wrong. So far, in my opinion, he has not passed 8th Grade Science. He cost or effort to do so is minimal, and it defies logic that to this point he refuses to do a real experiment, but has persisted with, for lack of a better way to say it, "F" graded school science project presentations.

[stefanbanev]

FOr the record, I want Rossi to succeed (as I have said before), but I do not currently rate his chance of success as high. To many questions remain for me in his demos. If he does succeed, I am fully willing to congratulate him, and reconsider my doubts during the run up, to the point of an apology if I find that my reasoning was in error.
However, I do not think this is about apologies. It is about critical thinking and honest opinion. To be required to apologize for giving something an honest effort, does not make sense. I have no emotional investment either way in his success or failure. I will say that there have been times where some here have presented Rossi arguments and comments based on emotion, vice reason. If I have crossed that line, I apologize.

I am waiting for the 12 year-old Kitchen Experiment by Rossi where he proves himself right or wrong. So far, in my opinion, he has not passed 8th Grade Science. He cost or effort to do so is minimal, and it defies logic that to this point he refuses to do a real experiment, but has persisted with, for lack of a better way to say it, "F" graded school science project presentations.

The "Science" is a very popular excuse for some who can not make money from it. Once the finding promises a real $$ there is no place for "Science" it becomes an engineering, marketing with hype around; 99% of such "findings" are the result of self-delusion, fraud etc.. nevertheless the rare real "findings" share the _SAME_ commercial signature. Rossi case has nothing to do with science - nothing, in my opinion he is doing exactly what he claims - we will see soon if it is the result of delusion or real. One is fore sure for me, it's not a fraud... he will go down badly if it is a delusion, he left no place to retreat.