10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

[parallel]

Giorgio,
It is difficult to prove a negative. I suspect few people are involved at this stage.

[ladajo]

right.

[parallel]

Andrea Rossi
September 15th, 2011 at 1:48 PM

Dear Italo:
The R&D with the University of Bologna did not begin yet.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

No comment.

[ScottL]

Andrea Rossi
September 14th, 2011 at 4:19 PM
Dear AB:
Bologna: already in operation the R&D, at its initial steps. Uppsala:
sooner than expected you will have news.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

Andrea Rossi
September 15th, 2011 at 1:48 PM

Dear Italo:
The R&D with the University of Bologna did not begin yet.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

You have to admit this is about as confusing as one can get now.

[Giorgio]

Giorgio,
It is difficult to prove a negative. I suspect few people are involved at this stage.

The physics department of UoB is not the pentagon. Few people is all what they have to start with.

As I already had the occasion to say, I feel that the whole collaboration between Rossi and UoB is not anymore important.
The coming test in October will clarify everything.

[Giorgio]

You have to admit this is about as confusing as one can get now.

Rossi always attempts to translate directly from Italian to English and this creates most of the confusion.

[ScottL]

You have to admit this is about as confusing as one can get now.

Rossi always attempts to translate directly from Italian to English and this creates most of the confusion.

In that case, I'd prefer a known speaker of both to clarify his statements. Does this mean his previous statement that research has started at UoB was a translationg error meant to mean it will start soon?

[KitemanSA]

already in operation the R&D, at its initial steps

could mean that the contract is in place, which would be the initial step. ICBW.

[sparkyy0007]

I did some numbers on Lewins data before boiling occurs.
Something interesting drops out.
How much water does this e-cat actually hold. The claimed volume was "about 30L"
Sub boiling ensures atmospheric pressure so we can assume the full 15.8 L/h pump flow rate reported.
From (18:15 to 21:05) :
Internal Fluid vol = Add water – (resovour quantity at 21:07) – (51 min sub-boiling overflow)
Vol = (15640+9380+9473+9959 – 8431) – (51/60) x 15.8kg/h = 22.591L

At 23:29 the report states "Hot water emptied from the E-cat through the inlet valve: 22463 grams"
so the numbers are close, I'll split the difference.

Assume 100% Heater power is (11.77A @ 212vac loaded) = 2.495kw
How much energy is input before boiling occurs:
18:59 – 19:10 50% power = 823.350kJ
19:10 – 19:40 ~75% power = 3368.250kJ
19:40-21:05 100% power = 12724.5kJ
Total electrical consumption from 18:59 to 21:05 = 16916.1kJ

How much energy is lost during that time from the overflow water.
Overflow is reported to occur at 20:16 and should be at the pump rate of 15.8L/h (no boiling)
20:16 – 21:05 =49 min
Q= 4.186kJ/kg*k x (49/60)x 15.8kg/h x (84.05 – 30) = 2944kJ

How much energy is needed to heat 22.5 L from 29.5 to 100C
Q = 6640kJ

Surplus energy = 16916.1kJ -2944kJ – 6640kJ = 7332.1 kJ

Where did this energy go?

If the boiler is 80 kg of steel heating it from 30 to 100 would account for only:
Q = 0.49kJ/kg k x 50kg x 70 = 1715 kJ (even less for copper)

However 7332 kJ will take 20 kg of steel to 778 C which when the electrical power is stopped
could continue to boil water for 20 minutes.

Available energy above 100 C = ( 778 C -100 C ) x .49kJ/kg k x 20) =6644.4kJ

Energy required to heat cold intake water for 20 min to 100C ( 3.6 L) = 1055kJ

Available for boiling = 5589.4 / 2260 kJ/kg(vap q) = 2.47L

The size of a 20 kg steel mass is tiny 13.6 cm sq.
If the heater is tightly coupled (thermally) to the 20kg steel mass at 760 C, and the boiling chamber is loosly coupled (thermally) to the mass, the sensible heat will bleed to the boiler during power off, extending the boil time (about 2.5 liters worth) exponentially.

Just a theory

[parallel]

It is not clear to me why Rossi is bothering to do this with the 1 MW demo so close. I assume this is why he said work at Uppsala was near to starting. He still sounds confident.

Andrea Rossi
September 16th, 2011 at 3:07 AM

Dear Pietro F:
Yes we have very big financial problems, because I have spent on this all the money I had, and sold all I had, also because the Customer we counted on could not maintain his financial engagements and this has left the ship in the middle of the ocean without oil for the engine. But we are going through, the 1 MW plant will be ready for the end of October for the test anyway, we are close.
Yes, we will organize e new very important test in Uppsala, and this time we will make the calorimetric measurements in a new way, suggested by the Professors: the steam circuit will be a closed circuit with a condenser and will exchange heat with a flow of liquid water: basically, we will have a primary circuit of the E-Cat and a secondary circuit through a radiator, and the energy will be calculated not from the delta T of the input/output of the reactor, but from the delta T of the secondary, which will exchange the heat by means of a heat exchanger. Of course the calculation of the energy produced will be in our disadvantage, because the heat exchange system has not a 100% efficiency, but I can accept it, because our energy gain is very high. The operation will be made also with self sustaining mode. We are already making this test in our factory, and the results of the energy gain are very close to the measurements we made in past. I am very satisfied.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

[parallel]

The new 27kW units apparently are modules of several smaller units.

Details continue to trickle out following Mats Lewan’s video of the 1Mw container. In the past, AR has often said that he preferred smaller units so that he could keep the reaction in a tame region for safety and control. At first sight, the 27Kw fat cat seems to fault that assertion but this is apparently not so. Each plumper is made of multiple smaller cores and, who knows, the complete ensemble may even be constructed of the original 300+ kittens we expected to see. By modularising them, we see a practical and clever way to avoid the nightmare plumbing and control issues that would otherwise follow.

http://ecatnews.com/

[Giorgio]

In that case, I'd prefer a known speaker of both to clarify his statements. Does this mean his previous statement that research has started at UoB was a translationg error meant to mean it will start soon?

could mean that the contract is in place, which would be the initial step. ICBW.

Kiteman interpretation is correct.
He thinks in Italian and than writes in English, hence many phrases are tough to understand but make sense if you translate them back in Italian.
Language barrier.

[parallel]

A.Rossi

I did NOT say that we are already working, I said the first steps have been made: signed the contract and some other thing. The proper R&D with the University of Bologna did not start yet.

That makes more sense

[Giorgio]

Just a theory

Maybe only a theory, but well developed and well expressed.

[Crawdaddy]

sparkyy0007

I have some comments on your theory.

The rate of heat transfer between metals and water is on the order of 300W/m^2/K and the observed rate of heat transfer must follow an exponential decay.

for example.
Steel at 775C will transfer around 229kW/m^2 to 100C water. Steel at 101C will transfer only 300W/m^2.

The linear nature of the temperature decline after the power is shut off would require an exponential decrease in flow rate or an exponential change in the area of hot steel in contact with water.

Another observation, is that the transfer of heat from hot steel to water would occur throughout the demonstration after the boiler is full. An examination of the extremely high transfer rates of heat from steel to water should convince you that it is not possible for steel in contact with water to reach the temperatures in your calculation.

Lastly in the final part of your calculation you use a value of 3.6L for cold intake water. The power was turned off for 35 minutes at 15L per hour this is more than 7.5L of intake water.