parallel wrote:Giorgio,
I don't know why you are such a pessimist. You always assume that Rossi is an idiot and therefore is not capable to designing a shipping container and arranging for shipment to arrive at a certain date.
I do not know why you always assume than when I am pointing to some issues it has to be because I believe that they are stupid or that I am attempting to discredit their work.
I am used to point out to obvious flaws in one's project and offer advices if I have the experience and knowledge to do so. These advices can make one save a lot of time and money. On the other hand you should realize that your attitude of ignoring problems is not going to make the E-Cat more real.
If they cannot have a seaworthiness certificate than they cannot load it on a standard container carrier but they will need to look for a general cargo ship. Transit time and costs will increase more than what you can imagine.
If you think I am mistaking just google what I am stating and check by yourself.
Edited to fix spelling
Last edited by Giorgio on Wed Sep 14, 2011 5:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Giorgio wrote:Additionally, if that container has to be in USA by october is already way too late for shipping it.
It is? No possibility that he booked it in advance, or could use some sort of "expedited" shipping?
Also, I thought he was in the U.S. and was building it there.
Reportedly, the reactors were built in Florida (US) and were shipped to Italy to be assembled into the 1MW plant to be delivered to Greece. When things fell apart with Defkalion, it needed to be rerouted back to the US for the demo there. It obviously would have been simpler to build it all in the US but the Defkalion divorce required an audible be called. At least that is the story Rossi is telling.
Giorgio wrote:Additionally, if that container has to be in USA by october is already way too late for shipping it.
It is? No possibility that he booked it in advance, or could use some sort of "expedited" shipping?
Indeed he might have booked in advance, but still it takes time.
Generally transit times from Italy to USA are as follows:
Italy to East Coast 17 day.
Italy to West Coast 33 days.
There are some faster lines to New York ( 12 days) but they leave only twice per month from Genova and you need to reserve and be ready in advance.
To that time you have to add the time for custom inspection at departing and arrival port. Door to door in less than 4 weeks (East coast) is tough.
Sea shipping is not like sending an overnight fedex parcel, IMHO.
Carl White wrote:Also, I thought he was in the U.S. and was building it there.
That's what everyone was thinking, but the pictures are clearly the one of the warehouse in Bologna where he made the first public demo.
Kahuna wrote:This is much more difficult to fake. If the self-sustaining run time exceeds the energy that could possibly be stored in the sealed reactor body for the output measured, it will be hard to dispute that something profound is going on. If successfully demonstarated, this will set off a fury of LENR Research very quickly IMO.
Right, but so far they only demonstrated it for 30 mins.
Very curious why NyTeknik requested that the demo be stopped after 30 min. Why would anyone with honest curiosity or interest in it not want to observe it in self-sustaining mode for as long as allowed? This is a supposedly world-altering technology, yet after just 30 mins "practical reasons and time constraints" seem more important? Is the "practical reason" that the batteries will go dead after 35 min? Almost makes it seem like NyTeknik could be party to a scam...
Kahuna wrote:This is much more difficult to fake. If the self-sustaining run time exceeds the energy that could possibly be stored in the sealed reactor body for the output measured, it will be hard to dispute that something profound is going on. If successfully demonstarated, this will set off a fury of LENR Research very quickly IMO.
Right, but so far they only demonstrated it for 30 mins.
Very curious why NyTeknik requested that the demo be stopped after 30 min. Why would anyone with honest curiosity or interest in it not want to observe it in self-sustaining mode for as long as allowed? This is a supposedly world-altering technology, yet after just 30 mins "practical reasons and time constraints" seem more important? Is the "practical reason" that the batteries will go dead after 35 min? Almost makes it seem like NyTeknik could be party to a scam...
I gave a quick read to the nyteknik report.
This popped out among the rest of the issues:
* Average overall power developed after boiling should have beeen
approximately 3.8 kW, in a worst case scenario, assuming that all liquid
water at the output was never evaporated. Possibly this value could have
been up to 7.8 kW.
* As input electric energy was 2.6 kW, the excess energy developed by
the E-cat should initially have been in the order of at least 1 kW, in the
worst case scenario.
Let me get this right:
C.O.P max: 3.0
C.O.P min: 1.5
Giorgio wrote:I gave a quick read to the nyteknik report.
This popped out among the rest of the issues:
* Average overall power developed after boiling should have beeen
approximately 3.8 kW, in a worst case scenario, assuming that all liquid
water at the output was never evaporated. Possibly this value could have
been up to 7.8 kW.
* As input electric energy was 2.6 kW, the excess energy developed by
the E-cat should initially have been in the order of at least 1 kW, in the
worst case scenario.
Let me get this right:
C.O.P max: 3.0
C.O.P min: 1.5
Need to say more?
No wonder Rossi says that E-Cat electrical is a ways off. He can't get there with those numbers.
If this plays out as being self-sustaining for long periods, I'm hopeful that the resulting firestorm of research will advance the technology far beyond what Rossi has been able to do. Of course thats still a pretty big *IF* at this point, but its looking more and more like it is: Real or self-dilusion at this point. If a scam, it is certainly an elaborate affair with many moving parts.
I am still not fully convinced. The new larger system and the short duration of the test dont do much to convince me. I do have to say though that if this is a scam, it is a pretty elaborate one. It could still be self delution of some sort as well.
If this is delusion, it seems to need to be MASS delusion
History shows that this is very easy to achieve, actually.
I would not be surprised at all.
I think that if this thing turns out to be real, people will very quickly optimize it to the point that it can be used for electricity generation. Even just making heat and steam though will already reduce the consumption of oil in the world considerably. Lots of oil heating in my country. I would much rather see an e- cat heating my apartment building and doing the warm water on top of that.
The poisitive side effect would be oil prices going down in anticipation of that.
If this is delusion, it seems to need to be MASS delusion. Still possible, but less likely.
The possibility of delusion is increasingly remote.
In this test the temperature T2 increases after the power is shut off. In order to be a delusion This would require a drastic decrease in the flow rate that occurred by chance just at that moment. Furthermore since the decrease in temperature is not exponential after shut off the flow rate of the water would have to continue to decrease by chance after the power was shut off.
Each experiment requires a different "just so story" in order to be explained as delusion.
The only rational explanation for the e-cat is fraud or legitimacy. This demo didn't change that fact.
From a lay persons perspective, my concern would be the 10 degree temp drop over the 35 mins of sustained mode. The device looks pretty well insulated which would prevent quite a bit of heat loss. They also heated it well above boiling point which means even after 35 mins, there's still going to be steam in the chamber and it is a pressurized chamber that was heated.
I guess a better measurement would definitely be to put it in a self-sustained mode (and unplugging it) for a day or two with time lapse video or something along those lines, but I don't see us getting that from them.
Personally, this does not add nor subtract from my skepticism yet. I'll still be waiting for the finalized device in a working setting before I jump on the Rossi train.
