The Silent War

[DeltaV]

Breaching Defense Contractor Data

[palladin9479]

Basically yeah, the Chinese don't need to research their own stuff they can just copy / steal from others.

Although the article had a slightly sensationalistic tone, especially when the term "network" was used interchangeably with "internet". The journalist also threw in the words "classified" and tried to make it appear as though classified systems were accessed / hacked and stolen from. That hasn't yet happened, unclass systems are typically hacked with records / documentation stolen, things like SOP, TTP, developmental journals and so forth. Nothing that was actually classified would be swiped, especially from a private company.

Then again, the Chinese don't need the actual classified data to reproduce much of the development work. Developer journels and other SOP's are all that's needed to know what works and what doesn't work.

[Joseph Chikva]

Basically yeah, the Chinese don't need to research their own stuff they can just copy / steal from others.

Basicaly this is true.
But not completely true. Mainly they copy Russian machines and weaponry.
But Russian weapon was advanced till 80s of last sentury, scientific staffs in Russia mainly grow old. Unlike China in which many advanced scientific centers are already created.
So, considering their vigorously growing economic potential an exit of China in world leaders - only time issue.

[Skipjack]

Basically yeah, the Chinese don't need to research their own stuff they can just copy / steal from others.

They dont even have to steal or spy on us. We give them everything for free by building our factories there! The article completely ignores that.

[Giorgio]

They dont even have to steal or spy on us. We give them everything for free by building our factories there! The article completely ignores that.

Unfortunately very few people understand this point.

[Joseph Chikva]

They dont even have to steal or spy on us. We give them everything for free by building our factories there! The article completely ignores that.

Unfortunately very few people understand this point.

Nobody can go against law of economics.
As China is very fast growing and capacious market.
And secret of their strongest competitiveness in world market in their poverty: no European or American worker won't work for that salary. And they develop technologies as well. And why world leader companies should loss that market if sooner or later Chinese in any case will reach access to similar technologies? But later and without Western companies' participation means that those companies would not get any profit from expansion.

[Skipjack]

And why world leader companies should loss that market if sooner or later Chinese in any case will reach access to similar technologies? But later and without Western companies' participation means that those companies would not get any profit from expansion.

I dont see it that way at all. The whole go to china craze has dont very little positive. Big corporations save a few USD on a car, maybe (most is done by robots anyway here) and that makes the shares go up. Unfortunately it also quite negatively affects the economy in the home land, destroying the market there. Also, rthe quality of goods produced in China is inferior. Some quality manufacturers are feeling the fact that they all of a sudden can not compete with the "quality" argument anymore. Their stuff is just as crap as the the counterfeit produced in China. They are both produced by the same machines, sometimes even in the same factory!
So why not just buy that and save yourself the extra money for the so called "quality" brand? People are not that stupid and they are slowly realizing that if they buy a Ford, they are not really buying an american product anymore. They dont give a darn about the shareholders of Ford, I can tell you that. Its not manufactured in the US, it is not american. Most of the parts come from other parts of the world. In fact a Toyota contains more US parts than a Ford. Kinda sad, hu?

[choff]

They dont even have to steal or spy on us. We give them everything for free by building our factories there! The article completely ignores that.

Unfortunately very few people understand this point.

I read one time that they were given the plans for the missiles on the Trident Subs.

[DeltaV]

The journalist also threw in the words "classified" and tried to make it appear as though classified systems were accessed / hacked and stolen from. That hasn't yet happened, unclass systems are typically hacked with records / documentation stolen, things like SOP, TTP, developmental journals and so forth. Nothing that was actually classified would be swiped, especially from a private company.

Cyber Warfare Challenges and the Increasing Use of American and European Dual-Use Technology for Military Purposes by the People’s Republic of China (PRC)

Testimony for the Oversight and Investigations Subcommittee of the Foreign Affairs Committee of the United States House of Representatives, for its Hearing On:
“Communist Chinese Cyber-Attacks, Cyber-Espionage and Theft of American Technology”

By Richard D. Fisher, Jr.
Senior Fellow, International Assessment and Strategy Center
April 15, 2011

• 2003: China is reported to be the source of most of 294 successful hackings into U.S.
Department of Defense computers. China is also accused of entering computers at U.S.
Army bases at Aberdeen, where it stole data on the Army’s Future Combat System, and
intrusions at Fort Bragg and Fort Hood.
• 2003: National Journal reports that major portions of the U.S. suffer power outages due
to cyber attacks, likely from the PRC.
• August 2005: Reports emerge about “Titan Rain,” code name for a group of Chinese
Internet spies of uncanny skill who had been tracked by the FBI since 2003, as they broke
into multiple U.S. military and defense contractor computers.
• December 2005: Chinese “hackers” reportedly based in Guangdong send personally
tailored e-mails to British Parliamentarians intended to launch “spyware” that seeks and
sends information back to China.
• January 2006: The first FBI Computer Crime Survey covering 2005 reveals that China is
the origin of 25 percent of computer attacks against U.S. businesses.
• June 2006: About 150 Homeland Security Department computers are penetrated and data
sent to a Chinese language web site.
• July 2006: China is reported to have broken into the U.S. State Departments computers
for the purpose of seizing “information, passwords and other data.”
• 2006: China is reported to have attacked and compromised computer systems at the U.S.
Naval War College, National Defense University, and the U.S Army’s Fort Hood,
causing $20 to $30 million in damage to each system.
• June 2007: Chinese military hackers are reported to have broken into computer networks
serving the U.S. Secretary of Defense, forcing the network to be shut down.
• January 2008: A leaked FBI briefing given in January 2008 reveals their suspicions that
uncontrolled or counterfeit CISCO computer routers made in China and widely used by
classified U.S. government and military computers may have created large numbers of
undetectable “back doors” that could be exploited by PLA hackers.

The problem is far worse than what you hear on the news.

The odds that no classified info has been stolen are near zero, IMO.

[Joseph Chikva]

I dont see it that way at all. The whole go to china craze has dont very little positive. Big corporations save a few USD on a car, maybe (most is done by robots anyway here) and that makes the shares go up. Unfortunately it also quite negatively affects the economy in the home land, destroying the market there. Also, rthe quality of goods produced in China is inferior. Some quality manufacturers are feeling the fact that they all of a sudden can not compete with the "quality" argument anymore. Their stuff is just as crap as the the counterfeit produced in China. They are both produced by the same machines, sometimes even in the same factory!
So why not just buy that and save yourself the extra money for the so called "quality" brand? People are not that stupid and they are slowly realizing that if they buy a Ford, they are not really buying an american product anymore. They dont give a darn about the shareholders of Ford, I can tell you that. Its not manufactured in the US, it is not american. Most of the parts come from other parts of the world. In fact a Toyota contains more US parts than a Ford. Kinda sad, hu?

If Chinese goods are marketable, so, they have acceptable quality.
And lable "Made in USA" also does not guarantee the quality.
The thought that automobiles are entirely assembled with the help of robots is very schematically. If so, why such big quantities of people work in Chrysler and General Motors companies? How many to these people pay in the USA and how many would pay to the same quantity of workers in China? Actually it is very serious item of expenses.

[choff]

I was always taught in network security if you don't want your important data hacked you kept the relevant computers on networks isolated from the internet, and that went for USB's as well. Short of making every employee take a course in network security it's difficult to make people appreciate this.

[ScottL]

I was always taught in network security if you don't want your important data hacked you kept the relevant computers on networks isolated from the internet, and that went for USB's as well. Short of making every employee take a course in network security it's difficult to make people appreciate this.

Ding Ding! Choff is the winner. I really don't get why others don't understand these fundamental concepts. Classified information should be stored in isolated network systems running some form of GP (Group Policy) through their domain. This allows us system administrators to log, track, and disable even the most mundane of components such as ....*gasp* USB ports. To even further the level of security, in all likelihood, the systems an analyst would sit down to would be thin-clients. This would allow all relevent information to be stored in a highly secured centralized data-warehouse/server room/environment.

[choff]

I was always taught in network security if you don't want your important data hacked you kept the relevant computers on networks isolated from the internet, and that went for USB's as well. Short of making every employee take a course in network security it's difficult to make people appreciate this.

Ding Ding! Choff is the winner. I really don't get why others don't understand these fundamental concepts. Classified information should be stored in isolated network systems running some form of GP (Group Policy) through their domain. This allows us system administrators to log, track, and disable even the most mundane of components such as ....*gasp* USB ports. To even further the level of security, in all likelihood, the systems an analyst would sit down to would be thin-clients. This would allow all relevent information to be stored in a highly secured centralized data-warehouse/server room/environment.

But that would mean that CEO's and users would have to actually listen to System Administrators when they broach the subject of network security. I think it was Revenue Canada that got hacked when the Chinese sent emails with attached trojans to the managers.
Probably the best way to deal with the problem would be through polite old fashioned diplomacy. China doesn't need every other country in the world launching retaliatory cyber attacks, people who live in glass houses, etc. A polite conversation between national leaders on the subject would save a lot of bother, given the global economic interdependence means we all end up hurting ourselves.

[DeltaV]

WW3 a cyber war?
Donilon: White House ‘Will Take Action’ Against Cyber Threats from China

[choff]

WW3 a cyber war?
Donilon: White House ‘Will Take Action’ Against Cyber Threats from China

What that means is they're going to use new laws to crack down on small upstarts while allowing the big companies to sell secrets business as usual. They need the Chinese threat to keep the military employed.