10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Giorgio · Post by **Giorgio** » Sun Aug 28, 2011 8:18 am

stefanbanev wrote:Actually the available public info about his "business plan" does not look for me as an unreasonable; given the limited creditability and financial resources no surprise it is so sporadic and quite opportunistic, yet I'm not sure it could be done better within such circumstances. His plan to go with 1MB plant is right, the focus on heat generation is the lowest hanging fruit etc... In my opinion, the way how he handles the public relation is his major "business disability"; he really should remain in shadow and hire a professionals to do such job.

Just for the sake of discussion, this is how I would have handled this:

You get ready a working prototype and than you set up a few appointments with some angel investors.
Some of them will not be interested (not their field, not believing you, and so on).
A couple of them will be curious and will ask to return with some engineers to verify the claims.

Two scenario here:
1) Engineers make the measurements and start to laugh. The angel investor curse you for having lost his time and goes away.
2) Engineers fall on their knees and start to idolize Rossi for having created the biggest invention of mankind to date. The angel investor will start to cover Rossi of money asking HIM what conditions HE wants to let his investment company into the business.

What we loose of focus sometimes is the staggering economic implications that Rossi invention has if real.
He could go from zero to a net worth bigger than the whole EU economy in a matter of a couple of years.

He has such a potential and what he does? He spends time replying to curious people on the forum and cursing Steven B. Krivit for his blog.
Nonsense I say, and also a total lack of understanding of how the business world really works.

Of course, this is just how I would have managed it. Maybe Rossi will prove me wrong in a mater of weeks in which case I will open a bottle of whiskey for the first time since I was 17 and cheer to the man of the millennium and to my blindness.

parallel · Post by **parallel** » Sun Aug 28, 2011 12:48 pm

Giorgio,

Of course, this is just how I would have managed it. Maybe Rossi will prove me wrong in a mater of weeks in which case I will open a bottle of whiskey for the first time since I was 17 and cheer to the man of the millennium and to my blindness.

Maybe Rossi will prove you wrong? You have already written how certain you are that he is a liar and a fraud: that there is no chance what-so-ever that the E-Cat works.

Belatedly you are coming to the conclusion that how he behaves now is of no importance if the 1MW plant actually works. As you say, he would then be the man of the millennium. As the inventor he can spend his time in whatever way pleases him. As you didn't invent the process who cares how you would have behaved?

The clock is ticking - only another couple of months and we should know. He recently stated that he would post photos of the closed door tests he will be making in September, so those interested, who have requested it, can see what the device looks like.

CAn you imagine a good reason why he would go to the trouble and expense of making a 1 MW unit if the E-Cat didn't work?

Betruger · Post by **Betruger** » Sun Aug 28, 2011 12:50 pm

parallel wrote: Belatedly you are coming to the conclusion that how he behaves now is of no importance if the 1MW plant actually works. As you say, he would then be the man of the millennium.

No he wouldn't. Not even if this were the invention of the millennium, which it isn't.

parallel · Post by **parallel** » Sun Aug 28, 2011 1:08 pm

Betruger wrote:
parallel wrote: Belatedly you are coming to the conclusion that how he behaves now is of no importance if the 1MW plant actually works. As you say, he would then be the man of the millennium.
No he wouldn't. Not even if this were the invention of the millennium, which it isn't.

What do you think would be more important inventions then?

Giorgio · Post by **Giorgio** » Sun Aug 28, 2011 1:57 pm

parallel wrote:Maybe Rossi will prove you wrong? You have already written how certain you are that he is a liar and a fraud: that there is no chance what-so-ever that the E-Cat works.

I never wrote that, but if you are happy to think it than be it so.
All this Rossi talk is really a big waste of time until some real info (coming from someone else than Rossi) will be available.

parallel wrote:Belatedly you are coming to the conclusion that how he behaves now is of no importance if the 1MW plant actually works.

Is of no importance simply because there is a deadline that is so near that anything else will not make anymore a big diference.
If there will be an independently certified successful test you will be right and I will be happy to admit I was wrong.

You see, the total lack of data to support Rossi claims still allows me to leave a slice of door open to him because I also do not have enough data to fully deny his claims. On the other way this lack of data is not worrying you at all.
That's the difference between us. I still have enough clarity of mind to be able to self analyze and criticize my belief while you are a believer who refuses to see further than his belief.

parallel wrote:CAn you imagine a good reason why he would go to the trouble and expense of making a 1 MW unit if the E-Cat didn't work?

Didn't Orbo teach you anything?

Betruger · Post by **Betruger** » Sun Aug 28, 2011 2:15 pm

parallel wrote:
Betruger wrote:
parallel wrote: Belatedly you are coming to the conclusion that how he behaves now is of no importance if the 1MW plant actually works. As you say, he would then be the man of the millennium.
No he wouldn't. Not even if this were the invention of the millennium, which it isn't.
What do you think would be more important inventions then?

You said it, not me. Which of the very top few inventions in the past or future 1000 years inarguably trump Rossi's gizmo?

Rossi doesn't have a patent on this phenomenon. The understanding and development of this thing isn't something that only Rossi could have done; it's not "Rossi-original" or -exclusive. It's not hard to conceive of better ways for average scientists/engineers to outdo Rossi's management of this thing.

Overall at this point the most complimentary take on this whole affair is that Rossi is the lucky guy who stumbled on a working demonstrator formula, for the "LENR" phenomenon. Otherwise he's been almost nothing but hindrance to this tech/sci progress.

Giorgio wrote:All this Rossi talk is really a big waste of time until some real info (coming from someone else than Rossi) will be available.

This is the bottom line, at this point.

I mean... "Invention of the millenium"? We don't even know what the invention is!! LOL

Giorgio · Post by **Giorgio** » Sun Aug 28, 2011 2:43 pm

Betruger wrote:I mean... "Invention of the millenium"? We don't even know what the invention is!! LOL

I wanted for once boast as Rossi does, just to see the feeling it gives

parallel · Post by **parallel** » Sun Aug 28, 2011 3:27 pm

Betruger wrote:
parallel wrote: Belatedly you are coming to the conclusion that how he behaves now is of no importance if the 1MW plant actually works. As you say, he would then be the man of the millennium.
No he wouldn't. Not even if this were the invention of the millennium, which it isn't.

You didn't answer the question of which inventions would be greater.

Then you must also think the invention of fire was useless because stone age inventor didn't patent it and certainly didn't understand how it worked. Likewise the wheel. What no patent? Useless... Let's ignore that you CAN"T get a patent on cold fusion in the US.

Cold fusion or LENR or whatever, has languished for 20 years because of arrogant academics. Who knows how many more decades would pass before anomalous heat was found and accepted but for the publicity from Rossi's E-Cat.

Betruger · Post by **Betruger** » Sun Aug 28, 2011 3:44 pm

stefanbanev · Post by **stefanbanev** » Sun Aug 28, 2011 3:46 pm

Giorgio wrote:
stefanbanev wrote:Actually the available public info about his "business plan" does not look for me as an unreasonable; given the limited creditability and financial resources no surprise it is so sporadic and quite opportunistic, yet I'm not sure it could be done better within such circumstances. His plan to go with 1MB plant is right, the focus on heat generation is the lowest hanging fruit etc... In my opinion, the way how he handles the public relation is his major "business disability"; he really should remain in shadow and hire a professionals to do such job.
Just for the sake of discussion, this is how I would have handled this:

You get ready a working prototype and than you set up a few appointments with some angel investors.
Some of them will not be interested (not their field, not believing you, and so on).
A couple of them will be curious and will ask to return with some engineers to verify the claims.
............

Well, it is likely the similar way Rossy went, yet there are multiple circumstantial but critical nuances along its implementation. The "mistake" was to get involved in public exposure in such bizarre way, even I agree with _parallel_ if e-cat is for real as Rossi portraits it, then his extravagant behavior makes a little difference and he may please him as he wants with no significant damage for outcome. However if the technology ~works but has a serious issues (like stability) such mistakes greatly increase the risk of failure. I do not consider a totally bogus scenario simply because it requires to push down the threshold of people stupidity below level I used to. As M.Botvinnik said "God does set the limit on human mental ability but forgot to set the limit on its disabilities".

Stefan

parallel · Post by **parallel** » Sun Aug 28, 2011 3:49 pm

Betruger wrote:Zzz

That's is one way of admitting you can't answer the question. Or you could be brain dead if you can't see how Rossi's invention, if it works, would change the world.

parallel · Post by **parallel** » Sun Aug 28, 2011 4:03 pm

Giorgio wrote:

You get ready a working prototype and than you set up a few appointments with some angel investors.
Some of them will not be interested (not their field, not believing you, and so on).
A couple of them will be curious and will ask to return with some engineers to verify the claims.

In a way that is what Rossi did. He thought the single unit might not be enough to persuade people and apparently wanted to keep the E-Cat entirely under his control until he had a salable device. He was sidetracked by Defkalian but funded the development himself to the point of building a 1 MW unit.

If that works, the anomalous heat will be large enough to quiet all critics and he has an "angel investor" ready to go if the 1 MW plant tests out.

tomclarke · Post by **tomclarke** » Sun Aug 28, 2011 5:06 pm

parallel wrote:Giorgio wrote:
You get ready a working prototype and than you set up a few appointments with some angel investors.
Some of them will not be interested (not their field, not believing you, and so on).
A couple of them will be curious and will ask to return with some engineers to verify the claims.
In a way that is what Rossi did. He thought the single unit might not be enough to persuade people and apparently wanted to keep the E-Cat entirely under his control until he had a salable device. He was sidetracked by Defkalian but funded the development himself to the point of building a 1 MW unit.

If that works, the anomalous heat will be large enough to quiet all critics and he has an "angel investor" ready to go if the 1 MW plant tests out.

Had he let engineers conduct sensible tests (without revealing any secrets) under his control his single low-power e-cat would have been enough.

That is if it had worked as billed.

Skipjack · Post by **Skipjack** » Sun Aug 28, 2011 5:11 pm

You didn't answer the question of which inventions would be greater.

Lots of inventions. Start with book printing a la Gutenberg, e.g. It made the spreading of knowledge easier and that advanced civilization and technology at a much accelerated pace. Before that books were rare and very expensive. I think that was probably the most important invention ever. After that probably the practical use of electricity (there were lots of inventions related to that and I cant really say which one would be the most important one of them) and the telegraph.

Betruger · Post by **Betruger** » Sun Aug 28, 2011 5:55 pm

Also look at the criteria. 'Of the millennium' is too vague. If you go by what is most technologically advanced, of course the latest is the best. By that measure every "best so far" invention is "invention of the millennium". The real millennial bests are those that poke out along progress trend curves.

Next and more to the point, Rossi didn't invent anything. There's no evidence yet that he understands the underlying theory. Comparing his to e.g. Gutenberg's or Tesla's or Bussard's inventiveness is just plain quack.