Recovery.Gov Project Tracker

KitemanSA · Post by **KitemanSA** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 5:09 am

Ivy Matt wrote: The optional WB-8.1 device was supposed to be completed by October 31, 2011 according to their original contract, but how or whether they intend to fit that in to their current schedule is not apparent to me.

Hey, maybe that is what the microwave engineer is for! Maybe they need microwaves to ionize the Boron-Hydride (or whatever they intend to use). If so, they may actually be working on WB8.1 now. Hmmm. That would fit with my suspicion that they won't need to announce the next pot of money since it is covered by the first announcement.

Hmmm.

rcain · Post by **rcain** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:56 am

these do sound very positive words to me too.

my half-penny-worth, reading between the lines, etc - i would guess they are now in a bit of a rush to get all the final ticks in all the boxes: one of the last of which - the all-magic 'scaling' performance.

(i note: they also seem to be taking some definition of 'Wiffleball' for granted, so that is very good news if they've managed to prove it actually exists/characterise it).

it suggests basic confinement, other matters of 'the art' all lie within 'hittable' target zones on notional 'near-future' machines.

my guess is, if they get this last tick in the box, they have a very good chance of obtaining sponsorship to the next mark - i would guess they'd go straight for the gold standard, a demonstrable Q>1 machine (and grab some publicity).

(Using DD fuel? my guess is Boron cycle is still a development cycle away, in parallel if all else pans out - discuss...).

'new microwave expert' - intriguing, could be any number of things...

cant wait for the next update.

bennmann · Post by **bennmann** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 1:45 pm

8.1 will "prove" boron. Or possibly "disprove" it. No need for a parallel project after 8.1 IMO.

I'm not sure if 8.1 will demonstrate alpha particle collection of some kind, or just the boron burn.

horsewithnonick · Post by **horsewithnonick** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 2:23 pm

I am admittedly more a fan than an expert, but my mind went to direct energy conversion when I saw "microwave expert"; this excerpt from Wikipedia would seem to support such a guess:

Aneutronic fusion reactions produce the overwhelming bulk of their energy in the form of charged particles instead of neutrons. This means that energy could be converted directly into electricity by various techniques. Many proposed direct conversion techniques are based on mature technology derived from other fields, such as microwave technology, and some involve equipment that is more compact and potentially cheaper than that involved in conventional thermal production of electricity.

bennmann · Post by **bennmann** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 2:25 pm

Nice catch horsewithnonick!

ladajo · Post by **ladajo** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 4:15 pm

My bet is ECR. This, as I recall, is something Bussard played with before.

JohnP · Post by **JohnP** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 4:19 pm

Aneutronic fusion reactions produce the overwhelming bulk of their energy in the form of charged particles instead of neutrons. This means that energy could be converted directly into electricity by various techniques. Many proposed direct conversion techniques are based on mature technology derived from other fields, such as microwave technology, and some involve equipment that is more compact and potentially cheaper than that involved in conventional thermal production of electricity.

I'm not seeing the connection betw. direct energy conversion & microwave. So the alphas come out, and the microwaves wiggle them... does this make them radiate their kinetic energy?

bennmann · Post by **bennmann** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 4:33 pm

This might help: http://www.google.com/search?q=microwav ... =firefox-a

KitemanSA · Post by **KitemanSA** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 5:11 pm

ladajo wrote:My bet is ECR. This, as I recall, is something Bussard played with before.

FYI:

ECR ion sources
Since the early 1980s, ... the use of electron cyclotron resonance for efficient plasma generation, especially to obtain large numbers of multiply charged ions, has acquired a unique importance in various technological fields. ...
...
For multiply charged ions, the ECR ion source has the advantage that it is able to confine the ions for long enough for multiple collisions to take place (leading to multiple ionization) and that the low gas pressure in the source avoids recombination.

Can you say "Boron"?

ladajo · Post by **ladajo** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 5:50 pm

Yep. Useful fuel injection method. Although I wonder about the effect a faraday cage inside the chamber would have. Unless you used the faraday itself as a resonance chamber...hmm.

TallDave · Post by **TallDave** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:00 pm

viewtopic.php?p=20032&highlight=#20032p ... te&p=20032

rnebel wrote:The major focus for the next generation Polywell is transport. We will be trying to take the machine from "OK" confinement to "good" confinement. Historically, this is a step that has been difficult for fusion machines. The next couple of years are going to be interesting.

Apparently we've swept past "good" into "excellent." Yay!

mvanwink5 wrote:Regarding pulse operation, that is at high power, perhaps at lower power levels, WB-8 can operate for longer periods.

Hmmm.

KitemanSA wrote:Where is said allusion?

Here you go. I stumbled across it a while back looking for something else. I remember it because I had been assuming pulsed to that point. Although, now I wonder if he just meant the physics would be steady-state over the length of the pulse.

rnebel wrote: Forum: News Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 4:49 pm Subject: Another KOS Diary On IEC/Bussard

dnavas:

Polywells have good curvature in their magnetic fields everywhere. Tokamaks have average good curvature. Consequently, tokamaks have some regions where localized modes (like elms) can be a problem.
It's unlikely that we will see elms on a Polywell. However, we might see other things. However, we don't expect to see catastropic things. What we may see is modes which increase losses through the cusps or cause cross-field transport across the magneitc field. These can affect the scaling laws. That's why the proposed phase II machine will be a steady-state machine at a considerably larger size. It should resolve these issues.

kurt9 · Post by **kurt9** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:50 pm

ECR microwave sources generate a denser plasma than inductive RF sources. The individual ion energies are more uniform as well. In semiconductor processing, this allows for higher implant density. Since the per ion energy can be lower, the implant depth is much shallower (which is good for implantation in thin-film materials) and there is less damage to the surface, thus requiring less annealing following implantation.

If ECR sources are being considered for injecting the Boron ions into the polywell, I assume that this is because they want a denser plasma with a more uniform ion energy.

mvanwink5 · Post by **mvanwink5** » Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:44 am

ladajo wrote:Tagging Final Report Submitted means they no longer intend to file Recovery.gov reports. But I am unsure how much they have spent to date, as the approved and invoiced amounts are at about 50%.

Based on Alan Boyle's Dr. Park interview by 2011 Q1 60% was spent, so reported money must be money received from the Recovery Program and the Navy going forward must be funding the contract, in which case there will be no further WB-8 Recovery Act reports.

If they take more money from Recovery by invoicing, then it means they have to report again. I am confused on this point. Unless they have invoiced all the Recovery funds, and the system has not caught up yet. Hmmm....

Final Report Submitted plus full time microwave engineer hired could mean funding will come from WB-8.1 contract option, and that would that mean reporting will be using a new reporting number? I suspect though Recovery Act reporting is done whether or not WB-8 expenditures is done, hence Final Report Submitted for WB-8?

In any event, I want to point out again that the machine is showing excellent confinement (for its design), and that means that it is scaling to me. The other half of the argument is power scaling. How may neutrons are counted with fuel introduction at full power?

Surely, this is the easy measurement and if power is not scaling that would be known immediately, also high bremsstrahlung X-ray emission would be known without analysis. It seems to me the single issue to be known is confinement, which is reported as excellent.

I remain encouraged, but concerned about the Final Report being ticked off as a possible limit on project progress visibility.

I think you are spot on and visibility will be zero even if funding going forward is coming from WB-8.1 option contract with a new number.

I also remain reserved about whether they have gotten to full power yet. They are careful about the words they pick, and that is not one yet used.

To me high power operation covers this doubt, but that is just my thought.

So, WB-8 may be mission accomplished, but is now in the dark, watch for WB-8.1 new report number, that will likely be the only light we will see going forward. Can WB-8.1 be started with someones quick pen stroke?

Ivy Matt · Post by **Ivy Matt** » Wed Aug 03, 2011 1:24 am

So I take it the consensus is that the microwave engineer was hired to ionize boron and/or detect alpha particles?

I hope Alan Boyle manages to get another interview with Dr. Park.

Betruger · Post by **Betruger** » Wed Aug 03, 2011 4:13 am

So the bad news is no visibility, but the good news that with as much progress/success as ever, an interview every other quarter ought to be possible?