10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

[Kahuna]

At this point, the main issue in my mind is Defkalion which has had lots of time with the E-Cat and seems to still be moving forward in a well-orgainized and well-funded manner.

3) They (along with Ampenergo) are part of pretty massive Rossi-lead fraud for money.

Well, "seems to be" is the really correct observation. How much hard would be to pretend all those things Defkalion/Ampenegro claims?

Do we have any independent confirmation they are real?

Yes, if the E-Cat does not meet claims (likely IMO), Defkalion and Ampenergo are in a very bad spot indeed. Either despite all their time and money, they failed in their due diligence or (worse) they are co-conspirators with Rossi in a massive fraud. I suspect the former, although the more Defkalion crows about its Hyperion product line and even releases specs, the latter becomes a possibility.

[Axil]

Google tells also that you can buy enriched nickel from URENCO http://www.urenco.com/custom/66/Enriche ... index.aspx .

Very well.
Rossi can buy and not enrich by himself. It is more closely to reality.
Now the second big question: for what?
As if he did not know the nature of process as he claimed earlier, he also would not know which isotope involved in reaction.

Rossi worked with Focardi who worked with Piantelli where a lot of this might have been learned.

As for what, let us speculate a bit.

Suppose that the process Rossi uses reacts with a higher probability as a function of the number is un-paired neutrons. Ni58 has two (2), Ni60 has 4, Ni62 has 6 and Ni 64 has 8. There may also be a factor regarding drive power. Indeed, the function could me much steeper than a simple liner function, like Xe^(nt).

Since Rossi obviously wants his unit to be non-radioactive, he would want to minimize any reaction that produces a radio-active isotope (or at least a long lived one that would show in the final "ash". The only one of the stable Ni isotopes that does that when a proton is added is Ni58. So naturally he would want to keep Ni58 reactions to a minimum.
So, he gets the tailings of the Ni58 seperation materials, has them formed into nano-powder, and the keeps his machine at ~100C to keep the drive temperature low enough to avoid reacting MUCH of the Ni58 that remains. Just a thought.

Well put...

It is important to add that Rossi buys nickel powder commercially off the shell from a materials dealer. The best roomer I have seen in print is that this powder averages about 1 micron in diameter.

Rossi then coats the powder with tubules. The amount of nickel that forms this surface preparation is well below 1% of the total volume of nickel. The Rossi reaction occurs primarily on the surface of the powder at the hydrogen nickel boundary layer. Nickel at the center of the powder that is not exposed to the hydrogen envelope does not contribute much to the reaction.

Some sort of vapor disposition process is probably used to build the tubercle eminences on the surface of each nickel micro-grain. Most probably, a selection by isotope weight is preformed to enhance the disposition of heavy isotopes of nickel over the lightest ones. The bulk of the powder remains unchanged from the natural isotope assay of the bulk material. So the amount of energy needed to build the tubules is relatively small in scale

This selection of enriched material by nuclear mass is business as usual and commonly done today by industry in the processing of nano-material.

[Joseph Chikva]

Very well.
Rossi can buy and not enrich by himself. It is more closely to reality.
Now the second big question: for what?
As if he did not know the nature of process as he claimed earlier, he also would not know which isotope involved in reaction.

Rossi worked with Focardi who worked with Piantelli where a lot of this might have been learned.

As for what, let us speculate a bit.

Suppose that the process Rossi uses reacts with a higher probability as a function of the number is un-paired neutrons. Ni58 has two (2), Ni60 has 4, Ni62 has 6 and Ni 64 has 8. There may also be a factor regarding drive power. Indeed, the function could me much steeper than a simple liner function, like Xe^(nt).

Since Rossi obviously wants his unit to be non-radioactive, he would want to minimize any reaction that produces a radio-active isotope (or at least a long lived one that would show in the final "ash". The only one of the stable Ni isotopes that does that when a proton is added is Ni58. So naturally he would want to keep Ni58 reactions to a minimum.
So, he gets the tailings of the Ni58 seperation materials, has them formed into nano-powder, and the keeps his machine at ~100C to keep the drive temperature low enough to avoid reacting MUCH of the Ni58 that remains. Just a thought.

Well put...

It is important to add that Rossi buys nickel powder commercially off the shell from a materials dealer. The best roomer I have seen in print is that this powder averages about 1 micron in diameter.

Rossi then coats the powder with tubules. The amount of nickel that forms this surface preparation is well below 1% of the total volume of nickel. The Rossi reaction occurs primarily on the surface of the powder at the hydrogen nickel boundary layer. Nickel at the center of the powder that is not exposed to the hydrogen envelope does not contribute much to the reaction.

Some sort of vapor disposition process is probably used to build the tubercle eminences on the surface of each nickel micro-grain. Most probably, a selection by isotope weight is preformed to enhance the disposition of heavy isotopes of nickel over the lightest ones. The bulk of the powder remains unchanged from the natural isotope assay of the bulk material. So the amount of energy needed to build the tubules is relatively small in scale

This selection of enriched material by nuclear mass is business as usual and commonly done today by industry in the processing of nano-material.

1. If you are so well informed please say the name of company seller of powder. I remember Rossi in his youtube demo read the producer of radiation meter. And nothing about powder's supplier.
2. Every chemical reaction occurs in such a manner - reaction begins from the surface and if particles are small the ratio of surface area to mass is higher. Nanopowder is chemical activated powder. It is funny to hear that anybody can modify surface activating nuclear reactions. Can you imagine the order of strong forces range? 1 micron is cosmic range for nuclear forces.

[Axil]

Rossi worked with Focardi who worked with Piantelli where a lot of this might have been learned.

As for what, let us speculate a bit.

Suppose that the process Rossi uses reacts with a higher probability as a function of the number is un-paired neutrons. Ni58 has two (2), Ni60 has 4, Ni62 has 6 and Ni 64 has 8. There may also be a factor regarding drive power. Indeed, the function could me much steeper than a simple liner function, like Xe^(nt).

Since Rossi obviously wants his unit to be non-radioactive, he would want to minimize any reaction that produces a radio-active isotope (or at least a long lived one that would show in the final "ash". The only one of the stable Ni isotopes that does that when a proton is added is Ni58. So naturally he would want to keep Ni58 reactions to a minimum.
So, he gets the tailings of the Ni58 seperation materials, has them formed into nano-powder, and the keeps his machine at ~100C to keep the drive temperature low enough to avoid reacting MUCH of the Ni58 that remains. Just a thought.

Well put...

It is important to add that Rossi buys nickel powder commercially off the shell from a materials dealer. The best roomer I have seen in print is that this powder averages about 1 micron in diameter.

Rossi then coats the powder with tubules. The amount of nickel that forms this surface preparation is well below 1% of the total volume of nickel. The Rossi reaction occurs primarily on the surface of the powder at the hydrogen nickel boundary layer. Nickel at the center of the powder that is not exposed to the hydrogen envelope does not contribute much to the reaction.

Some sort of vapor disposition process is probably used to build the tubercle eminences on the surface of each nickel micro-grain. Most probably, a selection by isotope weight is preformed to enhance the disposition of heavy isotopes of nickel over the lightest ones. The bulk of the powder remains unchanged from the natural isotope assay of the bulk material. So the amount of energy needed to build the tubules is relatively small in scale

This selection of enriched material by nuclear mass is business as usual and commonly done today by industry in the processing of nano-material.

1. If you are so well informed please say the name of company seller of powder. I remember Rossi in his youtube demo read the producer of radiation meter. And nothing about powder's supplier.
2. Every chemical reaction occurs in such a manner - reaction begins from the surface and if particles are small the ratio of surface area to mass is higher. Nanopowder is chemical activated powder. It is funny to hear that anybody can modify surface activating nuclear reactions. Can you imagine the order of strong forces range? 1 micron is cosmic range for nuclear forces.

Joseph thanks for your attention.

For your information...

I saw the Italian nickel powder vender documented in the Rossi patent.

The nuclear active area responsible for the Rossi reaction is most probably localized in and/or among the tubules on the surface of micro particles. Rossi said he spent every waking hour for six months sizing and shaping these tubercles to an optimized level. The dimensionality of these tubules are on the order of nanometers however, IMO

[KitemanSA]

I do not know what is "MRI facility"

Magnetic Resonance Imaging (MRI).

but very doubt that you for this cost can build even heavy water (deuterium) production facilities at significant quantities.

You are entitled to your uninformed opinon!
So am I.

Yes, we both are entitled to uninformed opinion. But my opinion is well stated in this case. As I am engineer and work for some companies interested in creation of a new production facilities here in my country.
So, I think that better can estimate the capital cost of embodiment of ideas. But certainly can be mistaken as well. But not in this case.

As I stated, you are entitled to your uninformed opinon!

[KitemanSA]

2. Every chemical reaction occurs in such a manner - reaction begins from the surface and if particles are small the ratio of surface area to mass is higher. Nanopowder is chemical activated powder. It is funny to hear that anybody can modify surface activating nuclear reactions. Can you imagine the order of strong forces range? 1 micron is cosmic range for nuclear forces.

True, but it is about the size for Surface Plasmon Polariton penetration. Thus large amounts of surface area for SPP penetraton MAY be what makes his system more productive than others. If it works at all that is.

[Joseph Chikva]

I saw the Italian nickel powder vender documented in the Rossi patent.
... Rossi said he spent every waking hour for six months sizing and shaping these tubercles to an optimized level...

I understand that someone sold Rossi the Nickel powder.
And here we told about enrichment of that powder.
"Sizing and shaping" has nothing to do with isotope composition.

[Joseph Chikva]

True, but it is about the size for Surface Plasmon Polariton penetration. Thus large amounts of surface area for SPP penetraton MAY be what makes his system more productive than others.

“Plasmon Polariton penetration” exists only in your imagination.
As no one of the people involved in the project doesn't mention them.
The surface increase at given mass increases intensity of any reaction.
But Rossi hasn't proved yet that his device produces more heat than consumes. I am sure that in that demo output does not exceed 750W.

Key words here:

If it works at all that is.

Does not work.

[Luzr]

At this point, the main issue in my mind is Defkalion which has had lots of time with the E-Cat and seems to still be moving forward in a well-orgainized and well-funded manner.

3) They (along with Ampenergo) are part of pretty massive Rossi-lead fraud for money.

Well, "seems to be" is the really correct observation. How much hard would be to pretend all those things Defkalion/Ampenegro claims?

Do we have any independent confirmation they are real?

Yes, if the E-Cat does not meet claims (likely IMO), Defkalion and Ampenergo are in a very bad spot indeed. Either despite all their time and money

I am sorry to express myself wrongly. What I meant: How do we know about "their time and money"? It is all word of mouth, website presentations, blogs etc. How much money and people would you need to just pretend all of this?

[tomclarke]

Well, "seems to be" is the really correct observation. How much hard would be to pretend all those things Defkalion/Ampenegro claims?

Do we have any independent confirmation they are real?

Yes, if the E-Cat does not meet claims (likely IMO), Defkalion and Ampenergo are in a very bad spot indeed. Either despite all their time and money

I am sorry to express myself wrongly. What I meant: How do we know about "their time and money"? It is all word of mouth, website presentations, blogs etc. How much money and people would you need to just pretend all of this?

it is easy, in this situation, for somone to present the impression of commercialisation, without spending much money, or involving many people in any real sense. There are always people will sign on as non-exec directors to a new company which promisses miracles. All that means is that they half believe the sales talk.

Equally, a tame company can be invloved, in some nebulous but legal fashion, to do something like marketing, sales, etc with no requirement to have working product to sell.

Talk from rossi of what they are doing should be dismissed as 99% hype. I'm being generous by the way.

The comments here show that many people are convinced to give rossi statements more credence due to these companies.

They should not.

[KitemanSA]

True, but it is about the size for Surface Plasmon Polariton penetration. Thus large amounts of surface area for SPP penetraton MAY be what makes his system more productive than others.

“Plasmon Polariton penetration” exists only in your imagination.

SPPs exist in places outside my imagination, but thank you for suggesting I could imagine something so wonderful!

As no one of the people involved in the project doesn't mention them.

True, but they haven't said they are NOT part of the process, unlike Widom-Larsen which they have rejected. Other than rejecting WL, they have said VERY little, so anything is still possible. So far, assuming it works at all, the only thing that makes any sense is some form of shielded (escorted) proton. "Mini-atom, SPP, Exciton-Polariton, there are others too.

The surface increase at given mass increases intensity of any reaction.

Chemically, sure, but not TYPICALLY nuclear. Here is one area where things may be more like chemical than TYPICAL nuclear. Perhaps because it is chemo-physically driven.

But Rossi hasn't proved yet that his device produces more heat than consumes. I am sure that in that demo output does not exceed 750W.

Key words here:

If it works at all that is.

Does not work.

You are entitled to your uninformed opinion (YAETYUO). I'll define it now so I don't have to type it out again and again!

[Joseph Chikva]

...unlike Widom-Larsen which they have rejected. Other than rejecting WL, they have said VERY little, so anything is still possible. So far, assuming it works at all, the only thing that makes any sense is some form of shielded (escorted) proton. "Mini-atom, SPP, Exciton-Polariton, there are others too...

...You are entitled to your uninformed opinion (YAETYUO). I'll define it now so I don't have to type it out again and again!

Ok, I see you are still sure that it works producing 5kW.
I am assured on contrary.
And you too can't assert that Rossi has given indisputable evidences of producing of anomalous heat that can not be explained with non-nuclear processes.
It would be very easy to give such evidence but they did not. Or could not?
Then they have rejected explanation of process on base of Widom-Larsen theory.

And who proposes another explanation (Mini-atom, SPP, Exciton-Polariton, etc.)? You? Do you have corresponding skill?

[KitemanSA]

[/quote]

...unlike Widom-Larsen which they have rejected. Other than rejecting WL, they have said VERY little, so anything is still possible. So far, assuming it works at all, the only thing that makes any sense is some form of shielded (escorted) proton. "Mini-atom, SPP, Exciton-Polariton, there are others too...

...You are entitled to your uninformed opinion (YAETYUO). I'll define it now so I don't have to type it out again and again!

Ok, I see you are still sure that it works producing 5kW.

Still have trouble reading English do you? I have highlighted a statement above for you. Obviously, I am NOT sure it works at all. Duh!

I am assured on contrary.

Which is the distinction. You are ASSURED with no data and I am NOT assured with no data. YAETYUO.

And you too can't assert that Rossi has given indisputable evidences of producing of anomalous heat that can not be explained with non-nuclear processes.

Absolutely true. But then there has been no information given to SHOW that it is not. I DON'T KNOW. Do you? I doubt it. You may be convinced based on no data, but that isn't the same thing.
The only FIRST HAND data I have makes me suspicious. Second hand data counters first-hand. I'm not sure.

It would be very easy to give such evidence but they did not. Or could not?

Or would not?

Then they have rejected explanation of process on base of Widom-Larsen theory.

Yup. So?

And who proposes another explanation (Mini-atom, SPP, Exciton-Polariton, etc.)? You? Do you have corresponding skill?

Actually, there are several "theories" out there besides my "Konjecture". They have some things in common, all involve paired proton/electron systems. And yes, I have the skill to conjecture. Don't you?

[Joseph Chikva]

...unlike Widom-Larsen which they have rejected. Other than rejecting WL, they have said VERY little, so anything is still possible. So far, assuming it works at all, the only thing that makes any sense is some form of shielded (escorted) proton. "Mini-atom, SPP, Exciton-Polariton, there are others too...

...You are entitled to your uninformed opinion (YAETYUO). I'll define it now so I don't have to type it out again and again!

Ok, I see you are still sure that it works producing 5kW.

Still have trouble reading English do you? I have highlighted a statement above for you. Obviously, I am NOT sure it works at all. Duh!

I am assured on contrary.

Which is the distinction. You are ASSURED with no data and I am NOT assured with no data. YAETYUO.

And you too can't assert that Rossi has given indisputable evidences of producing of anomalous heat that can not be explained with non-nuclear processes.

Absolutely true. But then there has been no information given to SHOW that it is not. I DON'T KNOW. Do you? I doubt it. You may be convinced based on no data, but that isn't the same thing.
The only FIRST HAND data I have makes me suspicious. Second hand data counters first-hand. I'm not sure.

It would be very easy to give such evidence but they did not. Or could not?

Or would not?

Then they have rejected explanation of process on base of Widom-Larsen theory.

Yup. So?

And who proposes another explanation (Mini-atom, SPP, Exciton-Polariton, etc.)? You? Do you have corresponding skill?

Actually, there are several "theories" out there besides my "Konjecture". They have some things in common, all involve paired proton/electron systems. And yes, I have the skill to conjecture. Don't you?

My congratulations if have the skill to conjecture.
As I have not. But I have the skill to say that if person wants to prove the existence of some phenomenon he should conduct correct experiment.
And he did not. And so, your conjecture is not more than castle in the air. As I understand you call this "YAETYUO."

[KitemanSA]

My congratulations if have the skill to conjecture.
As I have not.

Really? Wow, must be a SERIOUSLY dull world you live in. Poor guy!

But I have the skill to say that if person wants to prove the existence of some phenomenon he should conduct correct experiment.

Absolutely true.

And he did not.

What if he DOESN'T want to "prove" it? If he DOESN'T want to "prove" it, should he do expensive experiments anyway? Seems a waste of money to me.

And so, your conjecture is not more than castle in the air.

Absolutely true. Spot on you betcha!

As I understand you call this "YAETYUO."

Nope. I don't maintain that my conjecture is "true". I have no idea whether my conjecture is true. I don't really care if it is true (though it would be REALLY neat if it trned out to be!!! )

You however maintain that it is NOT true, which I believe to be an "uninformed opinion". And, You Are Entitled to Your Uninformed Opinion (YAETYUO).