So how is it worse for the rest of us in the "western" world if dictators get indefinite lifespans? I am saying - how has agelessness had a net negative effect on the big picture.
Those tyrants can still be killed.
On unaffordability. You say this but how is healthcare any evidence? Healthcare has come to be because of public pressure. Pressure for govt help. The injustice of robbing people from basically eternal lifespan (again assuming a realistic implementation that tends towards " aging escape velocity") would never be tolerated.
The same way a cure for cancer wouldn't be kept out of most people's reach with such artificial unaffordability. Economies of scale would help it - it doesn't get much larger in scale than such a scheme as one that every single human on the planet's concerned by.
Trans-singularity / scarcity / insert other factor here
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palladin9479
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Don't give me right / left rhetoric. I happen to work in a country with "universal healthcare" and it's no where near what you zealots made it out to be. I'm an American working inside South Korea and while my company pays for full coverage, I find it cheaper and easier to just pay full price on the economy. I'm not covered by the South Korea governmental system but I still benefit because their hospitals are prevented from price gouging. In the USA you have the Health Insurance Companies, the hospitals and the pharmacies each trying to get a cut of the same business with the HC companies taking the lion's share.
Anyhow
And yes any medical super breakthrough would definitely be kept out of the hands of the mass's by the same economics you referenced. Why would a business charge $100 for something when they can charge $100,000? Either way people will do anything for it, the price is the value of their life or the life of their loved ones, which in effect is infinite. Typical laws of supply / demand are that your demand will go down as price goes up, except this won't happen as there is no competition for your life. Option A is live, Option B is die, not much to bargain with.
Jesus right now today we have tons of cybernetic's and medical devices to assist maimed and disabled people. How many of them actually get the newest / best? Second best? Older yet still functional? And how many are ignored because they simply don't have the money nor can there a publicity case for them? They have to rely on charity's.
And infinite lifespan dictators mean Stalin would still be alive, Mao or any other insane sociopaths that though they would be Gods of a new world. Back then they were containable due to technological limits, but these days in a world of infinite connectivity, such individuals would become even more monstrous. Remember these people gained power with great applause and fanfare. Even Kim Ill Sung has praise's sung about him on the anniversary of his death day, the peoples of North Korea rejoice about the great wonders of "Eternal Leader" and the other great wonders of "Dear Leader" (KJI). Even though both individuals massacred hundred's of thousands of people, maimed more and have become the very definition of evil. Our best hope with NK is for KJI to die soon, and it looks like he's on the way down right now. KJI was milder then KIS, and it's looking like his selected son (KJU) is more pliable and open then his father was.
Basically stop watching Star Trek and instead watch Babylon 5 if you want to see what the future would look like. Less shiny and utopian like and more dirty and dark. For someone who seems to hate socialists you sure think like one.
Anyhow
And yes any medical super breakthrough would definitely be kept out of the hands of the mass's by the same economics you referenced. Why would a business charge $100 for something when they can charge $100,000? Either way people will do anything for it, the price is the value of their life or the life of their loved ones, which in effect is infinite. Typical laws of supply / demand are that your demand will go down as price goes up, except this won't happen as there is no competition for your life. Option A is live, Option B is die, not much to bargain with.
Jesus right now today we have tons of cybernetic's and medical devices to assist maimed and disabled people. How many of them actually get the newest / best? Second best? Older yet still functional? And how many are ignored because they simply don't have the money nor can there a publicity case for them? They have to rely on charity's.
And infinite lifespan dictators mean Stalin would still be alive, Mao or any other insane sociopaths that though they would be Gods of a new world. Back then they were containable due to technological limits, but these days in a world of infinite connectivity, such individuals would become even more monstrous. Remember these people gained power with great applause and fanfare. Even Kim Ill Sung has praise's sung about him on the anniversary of his death day, the peoples of North Korea rejoice about the great wonders of "Eternal Leader" and the other great wonders of "Dear Leader" (KJI). Even though both individuals massacred hundred's of thousands of people, maimed more and have become the very definition of evil. Our best hope with NK is for KJI to die soon, and it looks like he's on the way down right now. KJI was milder then KIS, and it's looking like his selected son (KJU) is more pliable and open then his father was.
Basically stop watching Star Trek and instead watch Babylon 5 if you want to see what the future would look like. Less shiny and utopian like and more dirty and dark. For someone who seems to hate socialists you sure think like one.
Woah. Hold your horses. That ain't left/right party line but first hand experience. I was born and raised in France.
The future as I see it will be gritty. Regardless whether that's right or wrong technology's trends will continue and that's what I base my speculations on.
And in the US it's basically the same. You can make a living off government handouts and lots of people do it. That's not symptomatic of a populace that'd pass up on squeezing their representatives for a free ride to agelessness, along with the rest of the population -- Almost nobody will pass up on that.
There is absolutely no way that the whole world will put up with something bigger still than a cure for cancer (since e.g. SENS includes it) being kept from them for the sake of profits. That's just not gonna happen. Also not gonna happen is it being excessively price gouged... It will be voted in, at least in countries like the US, by sheer demographic. Just like right now you have a culture of welfare, average people simply wouldn't put up with e.g. a birth limit. They would try their best to vote it in.
So yes in screwball countries it would be kept out of public to some degree. But again, answer my question: what does it matter for more sane countries like the USA? It would make assassinating dictators even more pressing. After you dangle the carrot of transhumanism in those people's face for a coupla decades.
One country deluded into believing that there's no such thing as agelessness, or that agelessness is evil - what does that mean in the big picture? Put your Korean bias aside for a moment. It's negligible for a few people to miss the boat. Just like.. It's negligible for the Amish to refuse technology at national scale.
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Overall your argument boils down to arguing from an extreme case. But even that extreme case doesn't matter in the big picture.
...
And.. It's not utopian idealism to speculate about curing aging. It's just a matter of time. We could see most human organs "grown" in vats within a few decades. What is idealistic is to expect it to happen overnight. It won't, and the implications of significant (followed by indefinite) life extension will be debated worldwide not just at egghead conventions but in cafes and board meetings both, for a while before it becomes reality.
The future as I see it will be gritty. Regardless whether that's right or wrong technology's trends will continue and that's what I base my speculations on.
Ah... This argument is going nowhere. In that same poster boy socialist country I mentioned I got to be treated (surgery, 2 day room @ hospital) basically for free. Also, years before I had income, I was getting doctor care also for free.And yes any medical super breakthrough would definitely be kept out of the hands of the mass's by the same economics you referenced. Why would a business charge $100 for something when they can charge $100,000?
And in the US it's basically the same. You can make a living off government handouts and lots of people do it. That's not symptomatic of a populace that'd pass up on squeezing their representatives for a free ride to agelessness, along with the rest of the population -- Almost nobody will pass up on that.
There is absolutely no way that the whole world will put up with something bigger still than a cure for cancer (since e.g. SENS includes it) being kept from them for the sake of profits. That's just not gonna happen. Also not gonna happen is it being excessively price gouged... It will be voted in, at least in countries like the US, by sheer demographic. Just like right now you have a culture of welfare, average people simply wouldn't put up with e.g. a birth limit. They would try their best to vote it in.
So yes in screwball countries it would be kept out of public to some degree. But again, answer my question: what does it matter for more sane countries like the USA? It would make assassinating dictators even more pressing. After you dangle the carrot of transhumanism in those people's face for a coupla decades.
They would not be immortal. Bullet to the head solves that problem.And infinite lifespan dictators mean Stalin would still be alive, Mao or any other insane sociopaths that though they would be Gods of a new world. Back then they were containable due to technological limits, but these days in a world of infinite connectivity, such individuals would become even more monstrous.
Why do those tyrants have any power? Because they have the people by the balls - thanks to scarcity. The more things change, the more human nature stays the same, but technology IS progressing unless you live under a rock. Scarcity will sooner or later be a thing of the past due to technology getting better and better and cheaper.Remember these people gained power with great applause and fanfare. Even Kim Ill Sung has praise's sung about him on the anniversary of his death day, the peoples of North Korea rejoice about the great wonders of "Eternal Leader" and the other great wonders of "Dear Leader" (KJI). Even though both individuals massacred hundred's of thousands of people, maimed more and have become the very definition of evil. Our best hope with NK is for KJI to die soon, and it looks like he's on the way down right now. KJI was milder then KIS, and it's looking like his selected son (KJU) is more pliable and open then his father was.
One country deluded into believing that there's no such thing as agelessness, or that agelessness is evil - what does that mean in the big picture? Put your Korean bias aside for a moment. It's negligible for a few people to miss the boat. Just like.. It's negligible for the Amish to refuse technology at national scale.
For someone who seems to hate socialists you sure think like one.
---
Overall your argument boils down to arguing from an extreme case. But even that extreme case doesn't matter in the big picture.
...
And.. It's not utopian idealism to speculate about curing aging. It's just a matter of time. We could see most human organs "grown" in vats within a few decades. What is idealistic is to expect it to happen overnight. It won't, and the implications of significant (followed by indefinite) life extension will be debated worldwide not just at egghead conventions but in cafes and board meetings both, for a while before it becomes reality.
Last edited by Betruger on Wed Jul 20, 2011 1:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
Because they can sell 2000 times as many units at $100?And yes any medical super breakthrough would definitely be kept out of the hands of the mass's by the same economics you referenced. Why would a business charge $100 for something when they can charge $100,000?
Because if they charge $100,000 someone else would offer something similar for less? Or are you assuming a monopoly?
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palladin9479
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- Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 5:22 am
My Point Proven
And this the free market proved my point for me.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44231292/ns ... lOSZ2G2WVo
Fairly successful drug for what is normally a quick and very fatal blood cancer.
The cost ... $4500 per vial, or approx $96,000 to $100,000+ per treatment. You might require several treatments before your cured.
Yeah ... the "humane" option would be to price it cheaper so that it's easily available to all blood cancer patients (specifically anaplastic large cell lymphoma) and thus would wipe that type of cancer off the earth. But no, their not going to do that. Instead their going to price it to the highest the market will bear, which they believe is 100K per treatment.
The objective of pharmaceutical companies is not to save lives, bring about world change, or otherwise endanger their own business. Their objective, like all business's is to make money, and make as much money as possible utilizing any and all methods possible. No amount of sci-fi golden thinking will change this, they won't give cures away for free, it goes against their business model (unless otherwise forced by government or by creating tax write-offs).
So yeah, any "cure for aging" will be treated ~EXACTLY~ like the above "cure for cancer". Priced accordingly to what the company thinks it can make the most money on. If the patients have to take out a second mortgage on their home, or go over their heads in debt to afford it, then that's just more money for the pharma company.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44231292/ns ... lOSZ2G2WVo
Fairly successful drug for what is normally a quick and very fatal blood cancer.
The cost ... $4500 per vial, or approx $96,000 to $100,000+ per treatment. You might require several treatments before your cured.
Yeah ... the "humane" option would be to price it cheaper so that it's easily available to all blood cancer patients (specifically anaplastic large cell lymphoma) and thus would wipe that type of cancer off the earth. But no, their not going to do that. Instead their going to price it to the highest the market will bear, which they believe is 100K per treatment.
The objective of pharmaceutical companies is not to save lives, bring about world change, or otherwise endanger their own business. Their objective, like all business's is to make money, and make as much money as possible utilizing any and all methods possible. No amount of sci-fi golden thinking will change this, they won't give cures away for free, it goes against their business model (unless otherwise forced by government or by creating tax write-offs).
So yeah, any "cure for aging" will be treated ~EXACTLY~ like the above "cure for cancer". Priced accordingly to what the company thinks it can make the most money on. If the patients have to take out a second mortgage on their home, or go over their heads in debt to afford it, then that's just more money for the pharma company.
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palladin9479
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- Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 5:22 am
It's a cure for a guaranteed death sentence, or rather possible cure, doesn't always work. And rather then sell it for a reasonable price, you jack it up as high as possible.
Seriously, you act like if some bio pharmaceutical researcher somewhere found a way to reverse cellular degradation they would release it for free? Or are you assuming the governments of the world will turn Nazi and just steal this private research? If it's developed by a private company in a free market democracy, there is absolutely nothing legal the government can do about it.
Seriously how exactly do you think this will go down? Rose's and sunshine? The results of the research itself would be a closely kept corporate secret, the results would be funneled into various products to be sold at high prices. There wouldn't be a single "anti age" drug, not profitable enough. They would make several that require regular administration to maintain the effect.
Simply put, this represents too much money and power for anyone to be altruistic. Nigh unlimited power and wealth for whomever controls the supply of this drug. Presidents, congressmen, kings, dictators, mega corporate CEO's alike will line up to purchase this. Whomever controls this would control them. We've all seen how corrupt and self-serving our politicians are, the ones around the world are no different. Every last individual of power would give whatever is asked and do whatever is requested to ensure their own literally immortality.
Or do you think they would all gladly give up that power, that control, that wealth so that you and others like you could live forever? You must honestly think politicians are out for your best interest.
Seriously, you act like if some bio pharmaceutical researcher somewhere found a way to reverse cellular degradation they would release it for free? Or are you assuming the governments of the world will turn Nazi and just steal this private research? If it's developed by a private company in a free market democracy, there is absolutely nothing legal the government can do about it.
Seriously how exactly do you think this will go down? Rose's and sunshine? The results of the research itself would be a closely kept corporate secret, the results would be funneled into various products to be sold at high prices. There wouldn't be a single "anti age" drug, not profitable enough. They would make several that require regular administration to maintain the effect.
Simply put, this represents too much money and power for anyone to be altruistic. Nigh unlimited power and wealth for whomever controls the supply of this drug. Presidents, congressmen, kings, dictators, mega corporate CEO's alike will line up to purchase this. Whomever controls this would control them. We've all seen how corrupt and self-serving our politicians are, the ones around the world are no different. Every last individual of power would give whatever is asked and do whatever is requested to ensure their own literally immortality.
Or do you think they would all gladly give up that power, that control, that wealth so that you and others like you could live forever? You must honestly think politicians are out for your best interest.
Quit fooling yourself telling me how you know better than I how I'm acting.
If something like SENS pans out and it turns out like this one cancer drug, I'll agree, no argument. It was a rotten deal and much less worthwhile than I'll have argued till then. But I don't see the evidence for such a turn out right now.
And even if it was that expensive. It would already be better than current situation. And again, I can't fathom at all how the sheer mass at the lower end of such a bottom-heavy demographic pyramid wouldn't sooner than later walk all over unjust and pretentious aristocracy keeping eternity to themselves.
What's any country gonna do about it? Bomb them? Vietnam as dirty as it was, already had the American public eating itself over the controversies. SENS as you envision it would completely dwarf that. And even more so in the rest of the world.
Also, as far as it seems to shape up so far, something like SENS won't be a single drug. This one cancer drug is still just one drug for one cancer. No comparison with SENS.
If something like SENS pans out and it turns out like this one cancer drug, I'll agree, no argument. It was a rotten deal and much less worthwhile than I'll have argued till then. But I don't see the evidence for such a turn out right now.
And even if it was that expensive. It would already be better than current situation. And again, I can't fathom at all how the sheer mass at the lower end of such a bottom-heavy demographic pyramid wouldn't sooner than later walk all over unjust and pretentious aristocracy keeping eternity to themselves.
Steal it and offer it in a new country. What's anyone gonna do about it? This is like human rights 101. The only reason for such shameless exploitation (cause thats effectively what's going on - immortal aristocracy walking on the backs of laboring mortals) is economic; not at all humanitarian.If it's developed by a private company in a free market democracy, there is absolutely nothing legal the government can do about it.
What's any country gonna do about it? Bomb them? Vietnam as dirty as it was, already had the American public eating itself over the controversies. SENS as you envision it would completely dwarf that. And even more so in the rest of the world.
Also, as far as it seems to shape up so far, something like SENS won't be a single drug. This one cancer drug is still just one drug for one cancer. No comparison with SENS.
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palladin9479
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- Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 5:22 am
So your a true communist / socialist. Thanks for letting everyone know it.Steal it and offer it in a new country
And yet ... you completely ignore the fact that there is no ethereal "super heroes" that go around righting wrongs and stealing secret anti-aging drugs to give to the free world.
Companies are not in the business of telling others exactly what their working on, not when it would be advantageous to keep such research secret. Anti-aging super drug would be the very definition of such research. Billions of USD, maybe even Trillions of USD to anyone who can develop this. And you think .. .they would ... give it ... away .... or tell ... everyone ... they have it...
I think you need to take a reality check.
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Quit fooling yourself telling me how you know better than I how I'm acting. So in short, this debate is over as it's no longer a debate. Feel free to continue your science fiction..[/quote]
LOLpalladin9479 wrote:So your a true communist / socialist. Thanks for letting everyone know it.Steal it and offer it in a new country
You're a joke.
I wouldn't. But it would happen. It's called reality. It doesnt live in the same world as teenagers' simplistic black/white "commie/capitalist" world.
ORLY. You mustve lived under a rock in recent years.is no ethereal "super heroes" that go around righting wrongs and stealing secret anti-aging drugs to give to the free world.
I think discussing things with you is a waste of time. It's either baseless insults or baseless arguments