10KW LENR Demonstrator?

Kahuna · Post by **Kahuna** » Sun Jul 03, 2011 9:31 pm

ScottL wrote:
Kahuna wrote:I could, with some effort, prepare a non-exhaustive list although I guess I would like to know the objective behind your request first. Around here, such a request might be deemed tantamount to being asked to "please hold your arm" out by one holding a very sharp sword. So excuse me for asking the purpose prior to being totally disarmed.
I think Kite wants to point out the difference between those who say that it works and those that say its great if it works. The only people truly backing it right now as far as I know are Focardi and Levi. I don't know of any other reputable scientists that are actively stating anything more than "it's nice if it works."

My point was not that these people are necessarily saying that it works (many do not have the personal expertise to assert this), but that they are associated with it to an extent that their reputations would be damaged if it were proven to be a fraud/scam. They therfore would not look kindly on the perpetrator of the scam and would want some justice for the damages done to them. Some of these folks have connections which probably would allow them to bring some considerable legal pressure down on Mr. Rossi. I have to believe all this is not lost on him.

ScottL · Post by **ScottL** » Mon Jul 04, 2011 6:46 am

I don't feel as though anyone other than Levi and Focardi have put their reps on the line. As for motivation for scam, money, always.

Luzr · Post by **Luzr** » Mon Jul 04, 2011 7:23 am

RaneesUm wrote: What are the motivations here? What are Rossi's expectations if he indeed is a liar? There doesn't appear to be any gain in it for him or anyone else involved in it.

Well, this story is so much similiar to Petroldragon story...

KitemanSA · Post by **KitemanSA** » Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:38 pm

Kahuna wrote:
KitemanSA wrote:
Kahuna wrote:Agree completely. THe list of "reputable" people that are closely associated with this thing is long and grows all the time.
Would you be so kind as to start listing said reputable people?
I could, with some effort, prepare a non-exhaustive list although I guess I would like to know the objective behind your request first. Around here, such a request might be deemed tantamount to being asked to "please hold your arm" out by one holding a very sharp sword. So excuse me for asking the purpose prior to being totally disarmed.

You made a statement about "reputable" people and "being associated with this thing". I am curious about your definitions (by example) of those two terms in relation to the E-Cat.

Kahuna · Post by **Kahuna** » Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:47 pm

KitemanSA wrote:
Kahuna wrote:
KitemanSA wrote: Would you be so kind as to start listing said reputable people?
I could, with some effort, prepare a non-exhaustive list although I guess I would like to know the objective behind your request first. Around here, such a request might be deemed tantamount to being asked to "please hold your arm" out by one holding a very sharp sword. So excuse me for asking the purpose prior to being totally disarmed.
You made a statement about "reputable" people and "being asspciated with this thing". I am curious about your definitions (by example) of those two terms in relation to the E-Cat.

Agree that the definition is key to the formulation of such a list. I took a rough shot at a definition a couple of posts ago:

Kahuna wrote:My point was not that these people are necessarily saying that it works (many do not have the personal expertise to assert this), but that they are associated with it to an extent that their reputations would be damaged if it were proven to be a fraud/scam. They therfore would not look kindly on the perpetrator of the scam and would want some justice for the damages done to them. Some of these folks have connections which probably would allow them to bring some considerable legal pressure down on Mr. Rossi. I have to believe all this is not lost on him.

KitemanSA · Post by **KitemanSA** » Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:55 pm

RaneesUm wrote: So much of the discussion here revolves around the scientific reasons why Rossi's E-Cat could not possibly work, and how easily it could be proven that it does or doesn't.

I have tried strenuously to find a valid reason why it can't work and have been totally unsuccesful at it. No-one has presented any physical reason why it CAN'T work. This doesn't mean it does.

RaneesUm wrote: But does anyone here have any decent speculations as to why this stunt (if that's what it is) is being pulled in the first place? Focardi and Levi are in a position to know whether their man is a con artist or not. And if Rossi IS a con-artist, who the hell is he conning?

His "investors"? Defkalion has a lot of "customers" that will be paying a lot of $ if Defkalion says it works. Maybe it is a longer con than you can see so far.

RaneesUm wrote: This is the more curious thing to my way of thinking. What are the motivations here? What are Rossi's expectations if he indeed is a liar? There doesn't appear to be any gain in it for him or anyone else involved in it.

There appears to be a GREAT potential for fraudulent gain. Sounds like motivation to me.

KitemanSA · Post by **KitemanSA** » Mon Jul 04, 2011 3:03 pm

Kahuna wrote: My point was not that these people are necessarily saying that it works (many do not have the personal expertise to assert this), but that they are associated with it to an extent that their reputations would be damaged if it were proven to be a fraud/scam. They therfore would not look kindly on the perpetrator of the scam and would want some justice for the damages done to them. Some of these folks have connections which probably would allow them to bring some considerable legal pressure down on Mr. Rossi. I have to believe all this is not lost on him.

Other than Levi and Focardi, WHO has been associated with the E-Cat. And who has associated them with it? Might said "association" been the purpose of the demos? Give a number of reputable scientists incomplete info and have them say things like "if what Rossi said is true then this can't be anything except nuclear" and then have the chorus chime in that these scientists said it was nuclear...

My greatest fear is that this may turn out to be the worst thing that as ever happened to LENR.

KitemanSA · Post by **KitemanSA** » Mon Jul 04, 2011 3:06 pm

Kahuna wrote: Agree that the definition is key to the formulation of such a list. I took a rough shot at a definition a couple of posts ago:
Kahuna wrote:My point was not that these people are necessarily saying that it works (many do not have the personal expertise to assert this), but that they are associated with it to an extent that their reputations would be damaged if it were proven to be a fraud/scam. They therfore would not look kindly on the perpetrator of the scam and would want some justice for the damages done to them. Some of these folks have connections which probably would allow them to bring some considerable legal pressure down on Mr. Rossi. I have to believe all this is not lost on him.

The easiest way to "define" it is to list examples of it. Your list of examples please?

Kahuna · Post by **Kahuna** » Mon Jul 04, 2011 3:57 pm

Since you asked so nicely, here is a quick and dirty starter list:

Alexandros Xanthoulis
Andreas Drougas
Andreas Meidanis
Angelo Saso
Aurel David
Brian Josephson
Carlo Leonardi
Charles Norwood
Christos Stremmenos
Craig Cassarino
Daniele Passerini
David Bianchini
David Christian Aurel
George Sortikos
George Xanthoulis
Giuseppe Levi
Hanno Essén
Ioannis Hadjichristos
John Chadjichristos
Loris Ferrari
Matts Lewen
Maurizio Torrealta
Mouafak Saouachni
Muafak Sauachni
Richard Noceti
Robert Gentile
Segio Focardi
Sortikos George
Sven Kullander
Symeon Tsalikoglou

Now I guess we will see the true purpose of your request.

MTd2 · Post by **MTd2** » Mon Jul 04, 2011 6:37 pm

I would exclude from the list the name of Brian Josephson, who is already associated with psychic claims and Homeopathy.

chrismb · Post by **chrismb** » Mon Jul 04, 2011 6:52 pm

MTd2 wrote:I would exclude from the list the name of Brian Josephson, who is already associated with psychic claims and Homeopathy.

You'd skip the only one with a Nobel prize? Not sure what that says about the rest!!

sparkyy0007 · Post by **sparkyy0007** » Mon Jul 04, 2011 9:28 pm

The Sparkyy Conjecture:

This is hypothetical ONLY.

The large bulb on the horizontal pipe (you know, where the reactor is supposed to be) on the ecat is a PZT
ultrasonic transducer stack. I have experience with these transducers
and a stack of 4 50mm rings could easily provide 200W of ultrasonic energy.
This produces a stream of nebulized cool water which travels through the real heater in the vertical section.
The stuff coming out would be over 100C (no boiling necessary) with some steam but mostly atomized water.
It would be hot (over 100C) and look just like steam with the ability to fool any of the tests they have
performed to date (ie humidity probe).

I don't know if they scoped the wave form to the internal heater, but a couple of IGBT or fets for a 200W
power oscillator would easily fit the enclosure, along with the PZT stack.
Maybe that's why he's so adamant about using steam.

http://youtu.be/4oAQh8kH94E
http://youtu.be/hzgqxEU0sVc
http://www.noliac.com/Ring_stacks-60.aspx

This one is only 125W.
http://www.nutramist.com/techspecs.html

Electrical to mechanical efficiency approaching 95% !
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15047322

Cool trick, if its true.

TallDave · Post by **TallDave** » Mon Jul 04, 2011 9:35 pm

KitemanSA wrote:
Kahuna wrote:
KitemanSA wrote: Would you be so kind as to start listing said reputable people?
I could, with some effort, prepare a non-exhaustive list although I guess I would like to know the objective behind your request first. Around here, such a request might be deemed tantamount to being asked to "please hold your arm" out by one holding a very sharp sword. So excuse me for asking the purpose prior to being totally disarmed.
You made a statement about "reputable" people and "being associated with this thing". I am curious about your definitions (by example) of those two terms in relation to the E-Cat.

I wouldn't put much stock in that. As I recall BLP had (has?) some pretty respectable people in their lineup too (some Fortune 500 officers iirc). They only have to be wrong about some esoteric physics. It's pretty easy to do.

sparkyy0007 · Post by **sparkyy0007** » Mon Jul 04, 2011 10:21 pm

fyi
Krivit:

http://newenergytimes.com/v2/sr/RossiEC ... lery.shtml

Kahuna · Post by **Kahuna** » Tue Jul 05, 2011 1:23 am

TallDave wrote:
KitemanSA wrote:
Kahuna wrote: I could, with some effort, prepare a non-exhaustive list although I guess I would like to know the objective behind your request first. Around here, such a request might be deemed tantamount to being asked to "please hold your arm" out by one holding a very sharp sword. So excuse me for asking the purpose prior to being totally disarmed.
You made a statement about "reputable" people and "being associated with this thing". I am curious about your definitions (by example) of those two terms in relation to the E-Cat.
I wouldn't put much stock in that. As I recall BLP had (has?) some pretty respectable people in their lineup too (some Fortune 500 officers iirc). They only have to be wrong about some esoteric physics. It's pretty easy to do.

I agree about BLP, but the point is not that "respectable" (and even highly-intellegent) people cannot be wrong about bets on new technology. It's that an intentional scammer would probably not include such folks as marks. That's why I suspect that Rossi and Mills probably believe in their own tech even though it may be unlikely that they can ever meet their claims.

That being said, I spent some time on Defkalion's blog today just for giggles and I must say that these guys appear to have done a lot of engineering on the E-Cat to incorporate the reactor technology into viable commercial systems. It could just be a false front I guess, but the tone and content of their answers does not seem to comport with the rather amaturish demos conducted by Rossi.