10KW LENR Demonstrator?

[Kahuna]

First the new patent now this bit of interesting news/rumour.

http://translate.google.com/translate?j ... amore.html

Good find Breakaway although I think it must lose a fair amount in translation. Perhaps Giorgio can make a read thru and give us the highlights as he has been so kind to do in the past.

No matter where you come down on the science, the characters and story here are most interesting indeed.

[tomclarke]

"This is known"... for high energy physics. There may be a mechanism like "internal conversion" that removes the energy before a "high" energy gamma can form. This is one of the "arguments from physics" I mentioned in my recent post to DT. It does not necessarily apply in this case.

Unfortunately experience tells me than when you find "may" and "if" inside a theory the chances of it becoming real tend to drop to zero.

I am curious to see your by the way. I have already sharpened the red pencil!

Indeed. It is pretty difficult to imagine such a mechanism which would not have left other evidence. After all, nuclei, stable or unstable, are well studied and intract in very well defined ways with their environment.

[tomclarke]

Which is why I didn't ask for probability but value judgement. "Likelyhood" not probability.

Do you have an equation for that?

nngh < enh < hmmm.

It is not fair to use words like this without having looked at the very beautiful Bayesian theory of probability which quantifies belief and provides an exact quantitative analog of logic for inductive inference.

Looking at evidence in a Bayesian framework helps you see what words like likelihood and probability mean.

It is not simple - for example you can have a probability distribution of probabilities. A premise which is believed equally likely to be either 10% likely or 90% likely is not the same as one which is believed to be 50% likely, and can result in different probabilities when this belief is combined with other evidence.

[breakaway]

Business related article on the European operations. Some new information on the importance of Rossi's wife.

http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_m ... 194216.ece

[KitemanSA]

Indeed. It is pretty difficult to imagine such a mechanism which would not have left other evidence. After all, nuclei, stable or unstable, are well studied and intract in very well defined ways with their environment.

I have read of a mechanism that is known but not often considered called "internal conversion". It is like beta decay but actually employs an atomic electron so there is no change in nuclear charge number. It is also a mechanism (AFAIK) that is used to shed excitation energy on the way to ground state so it is very rapid, rather than potentially taking hundreds of years like some instances of beta decay. For reasons I do not understand, some isotopes can shed a lot of energy this way and some can't shed any.

To me, it is NOT difficult to imagine that a lattice of Ni under unique stimulation like UV lasers (not normally seen in nature) might make atypical use of such an alternate de-excitation process.

[D Tibbets]

I was not addressing does Rossi fusion make sense, just whether p+62Ni->63Cu is exothermic. There seemed to be some doubt!

Oh, OK. Yes, there is some doubt left in DT's thinking. But otherwise, yes, a p+62Ni->63Cu reaction - for which NNDC has cross-section data so it is a reaction that can happen - releases an energetic gamma. This is known. Whether it is likely is a different fish, indeed.

So? The question is not whether the Ni62 + P reaction might release energy. Your example demonstrates this. The question is if there is NET energy release. To determine this you need to know how much energy was released- like a gamma, and how much energy was input- essentially the kinetic energy of the two particles approaching each other that is necessary for a likely fusion to occur. This is a common consideration and is the basis of the fusion crossection curve.
As nuclei grow the protons accumulate and produce increasing Coulomb repulsion that must be overcome.

Also, I don't understand the resistance to my arguements. M<y communication skills (and several readjustments of my arguements may have fogged the picture some) but my conclusions are merely restatements of published and accepted physics.
Please take my descriptions with a grain of salt. But pursue the several references I have presented. They are consistent.

Also, note I have mentioned, but otherwise ignored the confounding factors such as neutrons, quantum states, etc. that can cause local deviations from the binding energy curve (such as at helium4 and carbon12). If there are at the peak region of Ni62, they are small as they are not shown as large deviations on the chart.

Ross's claim that he is getting energy out is because of his secret catalyst that somehow allows this input kinetic energy to be reduced to a fraction of an eV. Any other explaination would have been observed in nature, and like I've repeatedly pointed out, would result is significantly different astronomical observations.

That is why some discussion here to try to replicate Rossi's claims are useless. Without the claimed catalyst, you cannot disprove the claims. You must depend on his demonstrations. All you can do is to try to force him to eliminate variables that could be confounding of actually fraudulent.
To make any conclusions you must have transparent and careful measurements (calorimetry, flow rates, etc.) If you have to keep a black box- fine, but everything going in and cumming out must be carefully and openly measured.

Dan Tibbets

[Giorgio]

First the new patent now this bit of interesting news/rumour.

http://translate.google.com/translate?j ... amore.html

Good find Breakaway although I think it must lose a fair amount in translation. Perhaps Giorgio can make a read thru and give us the highlights as he has been so kind to do in the past.

No matter where you come down on the science, the characters and story here are most interesting indeed.

Very quick readthrough:

- Piantelli supports (states) the theory as follows:
A low orbit electron is captured by a proton of the nucleus, thus becoming a neutron, thus there is no 500Kev Gamma.
(IMHO, this would imply that it is the copper that becomes Nickel, and not the other way around.....)

- Piantelli has formed a new group of researchers and financial support from several people. They are aiming in the next few week to obtain results in line with the one of Rossi.

- Piatelli deposited his theory in the University of Siena and, before releasing to the public, is awaiting the internal procedures to see if the University is willing to support this theory.

- There will be a public demo sometime in the coming weeks.


As usual, take all the above with a grain of salt.

[Kahuna]

First the new patent now this bit of interesting news/rumour.

http://translate.google.com/translate?j ... amore.html

Good find Breakaway although I think it must lose a fair amount in translation. Perhaps Giorgio can make a read thru and give us the highlights as he has been so kind to do in the past.

No matter where you come down on the science, the characters and story here are most interesting indeed.

Very quick readthrough:

- Piantelli supports (states) the theory as follows:
A low orbit electron is captured by a proton of the nucleus, thus becoming a neutron, thus there is no 500Kev Gamma.
(IMHO, this would imply that it is the copper that becomes Nickel, and not the other way around.....)

- Piantelli has formed a new group of researchers and financial support from several people. They are aiming in the next few week to obtain results in line with the one of Rossi.

- Piatelli deposited his theory in the University of Siena and, before releasing to the public, is awaiting the internal procedures to see if the University is willing to support this theory.

- There will be a public demo sometime in the coming weeks.


As usual, take all the above with a grain of salt.

Thanks G.

I agree, all heresay at this point but something to watch. If Piantelli actually does do some public demonstrations in the next fews weeks, being an academic, I would expect him to pay a bit more attention to his setup, controls and measurements.

If this scenario can be believed, it is interesting that Pintelli could not seem to get any traction for his work with the U. of Siena until Rossi started making noise.

[Axil]

I was not addressing does Rossi fusion make sense, just whether p+62Ni->63Cu is exothermic. There seemed to be some doubt!

Oh, OK. Yes, there is some doubt left in DT's thinking. But otherwise, yes, a p+62Ni->63Cu reaction - for which NNDC has cross-section data so it is a reaction that can happen - releases an energetic gamma. This is known. Whether it is likely is a different fish, indeed.

Suppose some weird LENR mechanism existed. Not impossible, though extraordinary.

The chances that it would just so happen to work in such a way as never to result in measurably radioactive ash, or unusual isotopes, are incredibly low. This is what makes all the CF "no smoke without fire" evidence incredible - the smoke is not what you would expect from a fire. Its also not very good smoke.

Tom:

You may have not considered how nuclear reactions affect atoms in a large assemblage of coherent and entangled atoms.

In such a collection, what happens to one member of such a coherent collection happens to them all. It may well be that an averaging effect takes place where the nuclear energy output of one atom is averaged over a hundred or more atoms in the coherent collection.

Nuclear reactions inside a quantum condensate have yet to be studied.


Best regards,

Axil

[cg66]

Indeed. It is pretty difficult to imagine such a mechanism which would not have left other evidence. After all, nuclei, stable or unstable, are well studied and intract in very well defined ways with their environment.

I posted this link before about a study of the stability of C-14. If isotope stability is based on some balancing act of pair-wise and three-nucleon forces and W-L predicts the creation of a low momentum neutron which they state has a large absorption cross section. Do we know enough to predict how the resultant isotope will form/decay? Is it different than bombarding a material with a neutron howitzer or what you would find in a stellar environment with S-Process?

http://www.futurity.org/science-technol ... -prospers/

[Axil]

Dan:

So? The question is not whether the Ni62 + P reaction might release energy. Your example demonstrates this. The question is if there is NET energy release.

There are about two dozen light elements present in the ash from the Rossi process in addition to copper. We cannot know what set of complicated nuclear processes are producing all this stuff. You are fixated on copper because Rossi says so and thinks you should.

I think there is a lot of energy produced during the transmutation of all the other lighter elements that can be found in the ash. Thinking only about Copper is a wild goose chase.

Best regards:
Axil

[tomclarke]

Tom:

You may have not considered how nuclear reactions affect atoms in a large assemblage of coherent and entangled atoms.

In such a collection, what happens to one member of such a coherent collection happens to them all. It may well be that an averaging effect takes place where the nuclear energy output of one atom is averaged over a hundred or more atoms in the coherent collection.

Nuclear reactions inside a quantum condensate have yet to be studied.


Best regards,

Axil

which wave functions are coherent?

[Axil]

Tom:

You may have not considered how nuclear reactions affect atoms in a large assemblage of coherent and entangled atoms.

In such a collection, what happens to one member of such a coherent collection happens to them all. It may well be that an averaging effect takes place where the nuclear energy output of one atom is averaged over a hundred or more atoms in the coherent collection.

Nuclear reactions inside a quantum condensate have yet to be studied.




Best regards,

Axil

which wave functions are coherent?

The key to the Rossi reactor is the production of coherent hydrogen. The prolific production of Rydberg hydrogen is what gives the Rossi reaction its great productivity in power. I believe that clusters of coherent, entangled and inverted ultra-dense Rydberg hydrogen condensate crystals are formed on the surface of a doped solid carbon compound such as graphite. Such ions attain a long average lifetime due to the high pressure and temperatures maintained within the hydrogen envelope of the reaction vessel.

This long lifetime is sufficient to permit the ions to drift across the hydrogen envelope. Once they reach the nickel oxide nano-powder affixed to the reaction vessel walls, a hybrid hydride reaction occurs with the highly eroded nickel oxide surface layer. The action of quantum lattice vibrations (phonons) synchronizes the nickel atoms local to the lattice defect that confine this Rydberg matter into a coherent state with the Rydberg matter.

[Giorgio]

If this scenario can be believed, it is interesting that Pintelli could not seem to get any traction for his work with the U. of Siena until Rossi started making noise.

As I said, the University world in Italy is in deep crysis. There has been budget cuts to research each year since the start of the new century.
The money they have is just enough for salaries, so is not like they can afford to waste them in research where there is a little return n the immediate time.

Of course now that there is noise on the subject the academic scenario can change.

[KitemanSA]

I was not addressing does Rossi fusion make sense, just whether p+62Ni->63Cu is exothermic. There seemed to be some doubt!

Oh, OK. Yes, there is some doubt left in DT's thinking. But otherwise, yes, a p+62Ni->63Cu reaction - for which NNDC has cross-section data so it is a reaction that can happen - releases an energetic gamma. This is known. Whether it is likely is a different fish, indeed.

So? The question is not whether the Ni62 + P reaction might release energy. Your example demonstrates this. The question is if there is NET energy release. To determine this you need to know how much energy was released- like a gamma, and how much energy was input- essentially the kinetic energy of the two particles approaching each other that is necessary for a likely fusion to occur.

So if the approaching particle is a neutron you would allow as how the reaction (n + 62Ni = 63Ni) is substantially exothermic? After all, there would be effectively NO kinetic energy needed to bring the particles together. What about a situation where the particle is an Electron Guided Proton (like whatsisname's mini-atom)? If the EGP has little or no coulomb resistance (no net charge), would the released energy of the reaction ({e,p} + 62Ni = 63Cu + e) be ~8.7 MeV?