Nasa testing the Widom-Larsen LENR theory.

[Giorgio]

Well no one knows for sure if angels exist. But we still get unverified claims from time to time. Say 500 years on.

Cold Fusion will never die.

True, there will alway be folks, perhaps axil is one such, who will BELIEVE in CF, no matter what. Heck, there may be the counter part who would believe it is a scam even after the world is being powered by it.

But for most of us, the sceptics, a concerted and HONEST investigation would go far to ending the issue. Such an honest investigation would not include conclusions like "since plasma matter neutron absorbtion is always, experimentally, accompanied by prompt gamma emission, and this condensed matter unit does not emit said gammas, it doesn't work". Such statements, by themselves, are totally without basis.

Are you referring to Rossi reactor or to WL theory?

Because WL theory has much bigger issues to overcome before even reaching the step where we have to care if there are gamma emissions or not.

[TallDave]

If electron capture by a proton, mediated by the weak force works on a tabletop at a few hundred degrees C, and produces copious heat as per the Rossi claim, then how do we exist.

I'm not convinced you do. Can you cite a paper proving your existence?

[D Tibbets]

If electron capture by a proton, mediated by the weak force works on a tabletop at a few hundred degrees C, and produces copious heat as per the Rossi claim, then how do we exist.

I'm not convinced you do. Can you cite a paper proving your existence?

Do you mean a birth certificate? Do you want the short or long form?


Dan Tibbets

[D Tibbets]

If electron capture by a proton, mediated by the weak force works on a tabletop at a few hundred degrees C, and produces copious heat as per the Rossi claim, then how do we exist.

Heh, that's a good point too.

If the described process does exist then obviously we have evolved a means to survive it, cuz survive it we have. This "point" is useless.

Let me rephrase it. If stellar mechanics included a nickel mediated weak force enhanced proton electron reversed beta decay as a significant exothermic reaction, the Sun would not exist as we know it, and thus we would not. It is not a matter of 'us' but of stellar evolution. Any population I star would not condense to the point where typical hydrogen fusion occurs. It probably couldn't condense to the point where deuterium started to fuse. And even large planets as they were condensing would reach temperatures for this process to occur.

There are all sorts of variations that might apply, but this serves as a generalized consideration against the likelihood of this occuring- certainly as a power source as implied by Rossi.

Some variations- metal crystal lattice is important, but that is counter to the Rossi claimed approach of having a very fine powder. A gas would do even better, as in a solar nebula. And if you argue that a gas wouldn't work, then consider that much if not all of the nickel in the condensing solar nebula would be in the form of dust and conglomerates with other solids until the condensing nebula heated up enough to liquify and then vaporize all of these elements. While not impossible, it seems unlikely, that at some point this process if real and of the magnitude that Rossi claims, would alter the stellar evolution so that it would settle into a stable ' main sequence' of burning hydrogen, not through a P-P or CNO cycle, but through a nickel catalyzed cycle that would be occurring at much lower and less dense conditions. Even an Earth sized planet as it was condensing might fuse significant amounts of hydrogen in this manner..

Of course there is the other secret Rossi catalyst that is supposed to enable this.

The baseline is that if this Widom Larsen theory is real, it must (I think) be a trivial contributor to hydrogen fusion in the universe, or the universe would be a much different place. That does not fit with the yields claimed by Rossi, so if the process exists, it could not explain Rossi's claims.

Dan Tibbets

[Skipjack]

Dan, I think you are right. I am trying to poke holes into what you are saying but I really cant.
The only potential thing that I might(!) see is that through graviational and centripedal forces the heavier elements like nickel are separated from the ligher hydrogen in a way that is sufficient for the WL reaction to occur only in such a limited way that it does not cause to many of the problems you are describing. I am not sure that this would really be sufficient, but it is pretty much the only idea that I have.
If I had to choose though, I would say that you are right and my thought is wrong.

[D Tibbets]

Note that my assertions does not necessarily contradict nickel mediated atypical fusion in deuterium, which is the fuel for most LENR research claims. Nor does it disprove the WL theory, just that it seems likely that it cannot be a significant contributor to heat production in stars or protostars, brown dwarfs, etc.. As M. Simon said if it is a six body reaction it would be extremely rare. In P-P fusion there is a side reaction to the main beta capture step that occurs ~ 1 % of the time. This is a three body reaction with a proton, electron and neutrino. This has a crossection of ~ 10^-47 in the Sun. A six body reaction would probably be many orders of magnitude more rare than this.

Dan Tibbets

[Axil]

Is it possible for a number of hydrogen atoms confined in a quantum box that is reducing in size to fused: some protons and electrons to form neutrons?

Some people want to hit a pile of metalized hydrogen with a laser to do this. Possible?

[tomclarke]

Heh, that's a good point too.

If the described process does exist then obviously we have evolved a means to survive it, cuz survive it we have. This "point" is useless.

Let me rephrase it. If stellar mechanics included a nickel mediated weak force enhanced proton electron reversed beta decay as a significant exothermic reaction, the Sun would not exist as we know it, and thus we would not. It is not a matter of 'us' but of stellar evolution. Any population I star would not condense to the point where typical hydrogen fusion occurs. It probably couldn't condense to the point where deuterium started to fuse. And even large planets as they were condensing would reach temperatures for this process to occur.

There are all sorts of variations that might apply, but this serves as a generalized consideration against the likelihood of this occuring- certainly as a power source as implied by Rossi.

Some variations- metal crystal lattice is important, but that is counter to the Rossi claimed approach of having a very fine powder. A gas would do even better, as in a solar nebula. And if you argue that a gas wouldn't work, then consider that much if not all of the nickel in the condensing solar nebula would be in the form of dust and conglomerates with other solids until the condensing nebula heated up enough to liquify and then vaporize all of these elements. While not impossible, it seems unlikely, that at some point this process if real and of the magnitude that Rossi claims, would alter the stellar evolution so that it would settle into a stable ' main sequence' of burning hydrogen, not through a P-P or CNO cycle, but through a nickel catalyzed cycle that would be occurring at much lower and less dense conditions. Even an Earth sized planet as it was condensing might fuse significant amounts of hydrogen in this manner..

Of course there is the other secret Rossi catalyst that is supposed to enable this.

The baseline is that if this Widom Larsen theory is real, it must (I think) be a trivial contributor to hydrogen fusion in the universe, or the universe would be a much different place. That does not fit with the yields claimed by Rossi, so if the process exists, it could not explain Rossi's claims.

Dan Tibbets

God knows there are enough holes in W-L.

But the above is not definitive. There are interesting resonance phenomena on surfaces of metals. Powder would help increase surface area. And in principle some such phenomena could provide effects that just can't exist in plasma.

W-L is not Rossi. And I have more sympathy for it because its claims can be argued rationally.

[Giorgio]

Dan, I think you are right. I am trying to poke holes into what you are saying but I really cant.
The only potential thing that I might(!) see is that through graviational and centripedal forces the heavier elements like nickel are separated from the ligher hydrogen in a way that is sufficient for the WL reaction to occur only in such a limited way that it does not cause to many of the problems you are describing. I am not sure that this would really be sufficient, but it is pretty much the only idea that I have.
If I had to choose though, I would say that you are right and my thought is wrong.

Uhm, I never thought about that possibility.
It could come out in the end that the sun is indeed a big onion with thermal reactions of different nature occurring at the boundary of each layer.
Interesting point you make.

[tomclarke]

Dan, I think you are right. I am trying to poke holes into what you are saying but I really cant.
The only potential thing that I might(!) see is that through graviational and centripedal forces the heavier elements like nickel are separated from the ligher hydrogen in a way that is sufficient for the WL reaction to occur only in such a limited way that it does not cause to many of the problems you are describing. I am not sure that this would really be sufficient, but it is pretty much the only idea that I have.
If I had to choose though, I would say that you are right and my thought is wrong.

Uhm, I never thought about that possibility.
It could come out in the end that the sun is indeed a big onion with thermal reactions of different nature occurring at the boundary of each layer.
Interesting point you make.

Stellar structure is one of the great trimumphs of modern science. Amazing & wonderful that we can so precisely work out what goes on inside that ball of fire from a few equations. But we can. So anything that significantly altered heat production at any level in stars would have observable consequences.

Best wishes, Tom

[TallDave]

Do you mean a birth certificate? Do you want the short or long form?

Peer-reviewed, of course.

It's an interesting objection. Could be six-body, deuterium, or might just be that the conditions for nickel catalyzation only hold true in a narrow set of conditions.

Or it could all just be another facet of grand unified experimental error. I'm intrigued by Rossi, though. An interesting year or two ahead.

[KitemanSA]

Well yes. But given current experience that is a rather extraordinary claim. Where is the extraordinary evidence?

Under current experience no radiation = no nuclear reaction.

As I have tried to point out several times, there IS no "experience" in any scientifically meaningful way for this situation. All the "experience" as far as I can tell, is for totally different conditions. Vacuum Tube vice Solid State Transisters. Potentially different physics.

To any rational individual, no radiation here means NO EVIDENCE.

If you wish to quote "evidence" try loading a Ni target with H and hitting it with variable speed spallation neutrons. The only difference at that point would be the H loading. Under THOSE conditions, is there still a full energy gamma? Till you can show me it has been done, you are spouting unknowing drivel.

Which says that what we are "seeing" is most likely chemical or experimental error.

Seems you are now softening your stance from "its a scam" to "most likely"... Ok. I suspect you might be right. Sigh. But what if you are NOT? Exciting, no?

[KitemanSA]

Are you referring to Rossi reactor or to WL theory?

Because WL theory has much bigger issues to overcome before even reaching the step where we have to care if there are gamma emissions or not.

Actually, the whole matter of CF/LENR.

[MSimon]

Kiteman,

I still think it is a scam. I was just commenting on the most likely sources of error assuming it is error and not fraud.

[Axil]

Is it possible for a number of hydrogen atoms confined in a quantum box that is reducing in size to fused: some protons and electrons to form neutrons?

Some people want to hit a pile of metalized hydrogen with a laser to do this. Possible?

http://journals.cambridge.org/action/di ... id=7807226

The short D-D distance of 2.3 pm in the condensed material ultra-dense deuterium means that it is possible that only a small disturbance is required to give D+D fusion. This disturbance could be an intense laser pulse. The high excess kinetic energy of several hundred eV given to the deuterons by laser induced Coulomb explosions in the material increases the probability of spontaneous fusion without the need for a high plasma temperature. The temperature calculated from the normal kinetic energy of the deuterons of 630 eV from the Coulomb explosions is 7 MK, maybe a factor of 10 lower than required for ignition.

We now report on experiments where several types of high-energy particles from laser impact on ultra-dense deuterium are detected by plastic scintillators. Fast particles with energy up to 2 MeV are detected at a time-of-flight as short as 60 ns, while neutrons are detected at 50 ns time-of-flight after passage through a steel plate. A strong signal peaking at 22.6 keV u−1 is interpreted as due to mainly T retarded by collisions with H atoms in the surrounding cloud of dense atomic hydrogen.