10KW LENR Demonstrator?

[Kahuna]

Another RAI Broadcast (in Italian) which appears to be primarily on the subject of Defkalion but Focardi speaks a fair amount (no Rossi). Perhaps Giorgio might be so kind (as he has in the past) to give a listen and let us know the noteworthy highlights:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfgW3czwvXQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oD81qF-cIIc&NR=1

Edit: Added Part 2

[ladajo]

Well, my first cut is that Focardi continues to say that he doesn't know shyte, with one exception. He absolutely maintains that there are no neutrons being produced, and thus the device is safe for licensing.

On two counts when asked about functioning, one by Cenali focusing on the production of gammas and betas, he basically answered, dunno we don;t knwo whats happening. The second regarded the catalyst mixture, which he again went with dunno.

He was also asked if they had worked with the american DOD, and DOE(?) and he said, no not him, but Rossi. He then declined any knowledge of the outcomes.

The Greek endeavour part was purely marketing and denial of disclosure of the investors who fronted the $200million Euro.

I apologize for any errors in my first cut.

There is a part 2 that I have not yet listened to.

[tomclarke]

i cant get hold of the original WL-theory paper - anyone got a copy?

I do have the link to it at the office. I will try to log in the backoffice and get it for you.

maybe i'm barking up the wrong tree, but i'm interested. (Ultra Low Energy Neutrons - very tantilising)

thanks

Tantalizing yes but, as you will see from the paper, they had to make all type of assumptions and semplifications to get to the final model.
As we all know, the possibility of a theory being validated is inversely proportional to the number of "if" that they place in the theory itself

As you say, ULENs are tantalising. Consider - either muons, or ULENs, would allow cold nuclear transmutation, energy release, etc.

But if you have high energy electrons reacting with protons you get ULENs only if the electron energy is just right. I worry that for such "just right" energy electrons the cross-section with protons will be low. Anyone know?

Also it is not simple to get electrons with a high but also tight energy distribution so that the neutrons produced will all be low energy.

however reading the W-L paper I don't understand how they can get such very high energy electrons from their proposed mechanism. If you were going down that route you might try to get very high power density laser light?

Quite possible to get laser-induced fusion, but via a different mechanism and does not qualify as cold...

The fusion neutron yield from a compact neutron source is studied. Laser-irradiated deuterium clusters serve as a precursor of high-energy deuterons, which react with a tritium target and produce copious amounts of neutrons in fusion reactions. The Coulomb explosion of deuterium clusters with initial radius of 5 to 20 nm irradiated by a sub-picosecond laser with intensity ranging from 1015 to 1018 W cm−2 is examined theoretically by a MD model. The dependence of the mean and maximum ion kinetic energy, ion energy distribution function and conversion efficiency of laser energy to ion kinetic energy is investigated. The fusion yield was estimated from an ion beam-target model. A high neutron yield of ~106–107 neutrons/Joule is obtainable for peak laser intensity of 1016–1018 W cm−2, laser wavelength of 0.8–1 µm and clusters with an initial radius of ~ 20 nm.

Neutron production from high-intensity laser–cluster induced fusion reactions
G M Petrov, J Davis and A L Velikovich

[rcain]

i cant get hold of the original WL-theory paper - anyone got a copy?

I do have the link to it at the office. I will try to log in the backoffice and get it for you.

thanks Giorgio, i would very much appreciate that.

Also it is not simple to get electrons with a high but also tight energy distribution so that the neutrons produced will all be low energy.

how about 'ringing' around the embedding lattice? this stuff seems to require deep quantum analysis, to even start to describe. for example, i was surprised at just how far the neutron wave function scales under these low energy conditions (factors of 10^3-6 at least iirc).

as to high eV, local charge effects at nano-scale structure? iirc, coating structure as well as composition was meant to be part of Rossi's 'Special Sauce'. its certainly an area being researched elsewhere.

just handwaving.

[raphael]

Explain your position than and possbily without adding petty comments, no one really cares about those here.

Give it up, Giorgio. You made a patently false statement regarding my position which you can't back up; and, you're now trying to obfuscate the matter. Do you not realize how obvious this is?

Moreover, this is an unfortunate syndrome for you...

And what is your position? Maybe you didn't realize, but no one here really understood it. Enlighten us, please.

Giorgio, I'll say something about my position but first I want to
withdraw my accusation that you are a liar.

It isn't right to call a demented person a liar and the possibility that you
fall into the "significantly more-demented-than-average" category is
becoming more clear.

To wit, you first characterize me as one of the "people claiming that
there are already evidences that Rossi device is working without any
doubt and there is no need of further investigations." Then you
subsequently claim that "no one here" understands my position.

Ostensibly, that would include you which means you are characterizing
something that you simultaneously don't understand.

Moreover, your "no one here" statement makes you, in your mind, anyway (?), a mega-spokesperson of some type. A mega-spokesperson with supernatural powers, perhaps?

My position is that I wholeheartedly agree with nearly all of what was said in the last post put up by "warthog" a guy who speaks, to my mind and probably to the mind of many others, with a great deal of both sagacity and credibility. (And a guy, btw, whom you have also attacked with the same quality of reasoning that I've detailed above).

[parallel]

LENR and "Cold Fusion" Excess Heat:

This long 2003 paper by Eugene F. Mallove, Sc.D. covers much of LENR up to that date. The huge list of multifaceted experiments showing anomalous heat should make it clear to objective evaluators that something quite profound is happening. Equally clear is that so far there are no good theories to explain it.

I found parts of it fascinating.

See http://www.infinite-energy.com/resources/iccf10.html

[Giorgio]

Well, my first cut is that Focardi continues to say that he doesn't know shyte, with one exception. He absolutely maintains that there are no neutrons being produced, and thus the device is safe for licensing.

On two counts when asked about functioning, one by Cenali focusing on the production of gammas and betas, he basically answered, dunno we don;t knwo whats happening. The second regarded the catalyst mixture, which he again went with dunno.

He was also asked if they had worked with the american DOD, and DOE(?) and he said, no not him, but Rossi. He then declined any knowledge of the outcomes.

The Greek endeavour part was purely marketing and denial of disclosure of the investors who fronted the $200million Euro.

I apologize for any errors in my first cut.

There is a part 2 that I have not yet listened to.

I am doing a quick transcript of both parts. Will post it in 15 mins.
There are some interesting tidbits inside.

[Giorgio]

@raphael

Yeah, whatever.
When mommy calls you for dinner tonight remember to tell her about your exploits on the internet today. She will be pleased.
Do come back when you grow up.

[raphael]

@raphael

Yeah, whatever.
When mommy calls you for dinner tonight remember to tell her about your exploits on the internet today. She will be pleased.
Do come back when you grow up.

Your response is the epitome of weakness. This should be a surprise to no one.

[Giorgio]

Another RAI Broadcast (in Italian) which appears to be primarily on the subject of Defkalion but Focardi speaks a fair amount (no Rossi). Perhaps Giorgio might be so kind (as he has in the past) to give a listen and let us know the noteworth highlights:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfgW3czwvXQ

Deflakion guy:
We will start a 1Mw plant in october in one of our facility (he does not specifies). The energy produced will be used to satisfy our internal needs.
We will use it also as a demo machine for demonstration.
We already have the final reactor in our hands, not the experimental one, but the one that will be manufactured. It works flawlessly.
We have one factory ready and 2 planned.
We think to be able to manufacture up to 300.000 units of it each year.

Deflakion is composed by a group of investors from Europe, middle east and Africa.
Planned investment is 200 Million Euro to cover the greek market.
All our investors are convinced 100%.

Prof. Celani then asks Prof. Focardi about the supposed beta+ emission of gamma at 511 GeV (the one coming from the copper isotope). He replies that from literature the emission of Beta+ is extremely rare (implying that the emission is a low energy gamma).

Prof. Levi confirms than that there is no external radioactivity leaking from the reactor with the 2 cm of lead. He confirms that without Lead there are low gammas leaking out and they measured it. He states that there are no neutrons.
He states that there is indeed a nuclear reaction inside but that the 2 cm lead screen is enough to shield the gamma radiations.
Neutron detectors (bubble detectors?) was used to confirm that no neutron was leaking from the reactor.

Prof. Levi confirms that Rossi has had contacts with the USA defense and energy department, while he didn't.
He does not know the results of these contacts.

The last part a journalist asks Prof. Levi if he has knowledge about the catalyst. He confirms that he knows that there is a catalyst but has no knowledge about it and restrained himself from trying to understand it due to loyalty toward Rossi.

End of part1.

Part2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oD81qF-cIIc&NR=1


Now, this is interesting:

The guy (a patent attorney) asks why in the patent there is no mention of the catalyst, while he now states that there is a catalyst. The guy next points out that IF there is a catalyst and the catalyst is not disclosed into the patent than the patent will be null and void and cannot be enforced.
(surprise surprise)

Levi reply: I used the term catalyst as a material, but we are talking about the same "object", let me call it an object and I know it exists because Rossi declares that it exists, even if I never cared to check what this object is made of.
(He switched from the word catalyst (intended as a chemical material) to the word catalyst intended as an object that acts as a catalyst.)

The next guys states that he is puzzled by the issue that Prof. Levi believes Rossi without caring to know what the catalyst is.
Prof Levi declares that he does not care because he saw the machine working, so he really does not care about what the catalyst is or is made of.


Next the journalist asks:
Does the machine work without this catalyst?
Prof Levi states that he does not know this, but he thinks no due to previous experiments done with Siena University in the past.

The journalist next asks what will happen if this machine does really work and enters into production.
From here there is the usual discussion of Carbon, Oil and Nuclear companies that will for sure try to stop this invention to avoid damaging their business.

The last discussion is how will the world change if there will be cheap energy as Rossi promises.
End of second part.


That's all.

[chrismb]

Good work on the translation, G.

[tomclarke]

LENR and "Cold Fusion" Excess Heat:

This long 2003 paper by Eugene F. Mallove, Sc.D. covers much of LENR up to that date. The huge list of multifaceted experiments showing anomalous heat should make it clear to objective evaluators that something quite profound is happening. Equally clear is that so far there are no good theories to explain it.

I found parts of it fascinating.

See http://www.infinite-energy.com/resources/iccf10.html

OK - please help me. That paper was 2003. It references a number of experiments. Choose for me the best experiment which validates excess (non-chemical-range) heat production. If it has not been replicated then why not? If it was, who by, and did they reach same conclusions?

The CF community does try to replicate, especially the most promising expeirments. My contention is that no experiment has survived replication with anomalous heat other than that explainable from chemical causes.

When I looked at the field that was what I found. But I may have missed something good.

Best wishes, Tom

[MSimon]

But if that indeed is all he has done, then he won't be able to build his one megawatt plant comprising 300 reactors each of 4 kW by October 2011, and he consequently won't get paid.

If he is depending an the water flow for oxygen he may get this 300 built. He will just need a rather substantial pump (300 l/s - 4,500 gpm) to make it work.

[MSimon]

Helius says:

"No. It isn't a prerequisite. The request for cash is the attempt to 'close' (in salesmanship parlance) the scam, at least for that 'investor'."

So, it's a definite scam already because Rossi "might" at some future date attempt to close a deal?

At some future date, pigs "might" also fly.

More outrageous BS.....

Well he is explicating how the scam might work. How is this any different from folks speculating how the device might work (Muons any one?).

[KitemanSA]

No plans and no theory? Well then. I'm going to get on with replication ASAP.

This sarcasm also doesn't mean that it cannot work, it just means that we don't know how it could work.

Oh. The sarcasm was much deeper than you admit.

Replication is the essence of science.

Yet I don't notice anyone ripping Edison a new one and calling him a scammer even though he did no science, just development and invention. Science is for the scientists. Rossi is not a scientist. Why should he be condemned for not being one? He gave a number of (rather consistent in my humble opinion) demonstrations of a new invention. Neat. I'll wait for the real-world demonstration thank you.

If it never happens, oh well, another failure. If it does... WOW!!!

Anybody want to comment on the suggestion that the "internal heater" is in fact a system to create the W-L ULMN thingees?