Is The Drug War A Symptom Of A Sick Society
While I don't agree with the idea that legalization will solve the drug problem, I do believe the 2 million people imprisoned in the US for drug related crimes have grounds for some type of class action lawsuit over selective prosecution, even though it fails as defense arguement in criminal trial. If you recall the OJ Simpson case, he got off on the murder charge, but got nailed in the wrongful death suit, the burden of proof is lower.
If such a trial were to take place, senior government officials/politicians could be questioned and cross examined under oath, and if you win, the result would have far reaching consequences for drug laws, to say nothing of high level corruption.
The system would be reduced to the choices of:
Arrest high level officials and politicians past and present on drug charges;
Abolish the drug laws and release everybody;
Declare you have no case and make up a bogus excuse that brings scorn on the Judiciary;
Admit two sets of laws exist and refuse to do anything about it.
As to legalization, be careful what you wish for, in case you get it. You might end up saying, 'This isn't what I intended would happen.'
I remember joking with a Calculus Prof when the Shau of Iran was overthrown, everybody though some nasty dictator was gone and people power had made the world a better place. We both laughed when I said, 'what if they get somebody worse.'
If such a trial were to take place, senior government officials/politicians could be questioned and cross examined under oath, and if you win, the result would have far reaching consequences for drug laws, to say nothing of high level corruption.
The system would be reduced to the choices of:
Arrest high level officials and politicians past and present on drug charges;
Abolish the drug laws and release everybody;
Declare you have no case and make up a bogus excuse that brings scorn on the Judiciary;
Admit two sets of laws exist and refuse to do anything about it.
As to legalization, be careful what you wish for, in case you get it. You might end up saying, 'This isn't what I intended would happen.'
I remember joking with a Calculus Prof when the Shau of Iran was overthrown, everybody though some nasty dictator was gone and people power had made the world a better place. We both laughed when I said, 'what if they get somebody worse.'
CHoff
Yeah. It would be terrible. We would be going back to conditions that existed for at least 300 years in North America. Back to when heroin and opiates were over the counter medicines.As to legalization, be careful what you wish for, in case you get it.
You have to wonder why in that 300 years the drug menace was ignored. You would have to ask why Jefferson and Washington grew hemp. Didn't they recognize the dangers?
As to being careful? No such care was involved in the re-legalization of alcohol. People were so desperate to rid the nation of the drug gangs of the time that they would do anything (stupid) to solve the problem.
Thank the maker we are not that stupid (yet).
The above is no joke. It is sarcasm.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.
What real documented evidence do we have now that speaks to whether or not it was an issue in those days?
Just because it lacks evidence does not mean it did not exist.
On that logic we can assume that lots of issues did not exist in the past because no-one wrote about it or saved some evidence.
I hypothesize that there were no homeless people in 1742 in America based on no records. And from this I deduce that it was a much better society and thus created a more equal and fair life for all. We should live that way again! The fact that people die in the streets today while others don't care is a national tradgedy that we brought on ourselves. This DID NOT exist as a problem before!
Just because it lacks evidence does not mean it did not exist.
On that logic we can assume that lots of issues did not exist in the past because no-one wrote about it or saved some evidence.
I hypothesize that there were no homeless people in 1742 in America based on no records. And from this I deduce that it was a much better society and thus created a more equal and fair life for all. We should live that way again! The fact that people die in the streets today while others don't care is a national tradgedy that we brought on ourselves. This DID NOT exist as a problem before!
Known evidence:ladajo wrote:What real documented evidence do we have now that speaks to whether or not it was an issue in those days?
Just because it lacks evidence does not mean it did not exist.
On that logic we can assume that lots of issues did not exist in the past because no-one wrote about it or saved some evidence.
I hypothesize that there were no homeless people in 1742 in America based on no records. And from this I deduce that it was a much better society and thus created a more equal and fair life for all. We should live that way again! The fact that people die in the streets today while others don't care is a national tradgedy that we brought on ourselves. This DID NOT exist as a problem before!
1. Jefferson encouraged the growing of hemp
2. Washington discussed the separation of male from female hemp plants (only necessary if you are interested in the drug properties)
3. Heroin was an over the counter medicine from its discovery in the early 1880s (IIRC) until 1914. The Harrison Act was brought to you by the same people who brought you Alcohol Prohibitiion.
4. Opium gum (plant resin) was freely available until 1914.
In addition I can put you in touch with an amateur who has done extensive research who says that our drug problem didn't get going until the 1914 Harrison Narcotics act.
Or if you had the interest you could do your own research. There are newspapers from that era.
The information is out there and not hard to find. You just haven't looked.“The role of psychoactive drugs has been airbrushed out of the conventional picture of Western civilization. The academics who have created this drug-free Greco-Roman world have found their nemesis in Dr. Hillman’s The Chemical Muse. With clarity and directness the author gives us back a lost chapter of our Classical heritage and by doing so restores our understanding of this past.” ---Richard Rudgley, author of Lost Civilizations of the Stone Age
“In addition to demonstrating the importance of medicinal botanicals and chemicals in alleviating the sufferings of humanity in the ancient Greco-Roman world, Dr. Hillman unveils the role that many of them played as recreational drugs, not for the lunatic fringes of society, but as sources of knowledge and religious sacraments by the leading artists, thinkers, and politicians, central to the very formation of what we admire and enshrine as the Classical tradition. The Chemical Muse inspired democracy itself and the greatest minds of antiquity.”---Carl A. P. Ruck, author of Sacred Mushrooms: The Secrets of Eleusis
"David Hillman has given us a penetrating insight into our permanent romance with altered consciousness. This important work is a myth-buster."---Mike Gray, author of Drug Crazy and The China Syndrome
from a reader review:
I enjoyed this book very much. It is an excellent introduction to the idea that psychotropic/ethnobotanicals had an important role in early Western civilization. However, if you as a reader or scholar or have archaeology-paleontology intrests then you already know this. The issue isn't really "did ancient human beings know that you could get high from plants?"...Neanderthals knew this...the ancient Egyptians knew it...everyone from Laplanders to the Maori knew it...but instead that current 20th century Western academia blacklists the idea. Much of the book is defensive and spends too much time "proving" what is not particularly suprising to folks who have read other books on the subject. Freshmen Philosophy students should read this book, folks studying ethnopharmacology are better off with McKenna and Leary.
The Chemical Muse: Drug Use and the Roots of Western Civilization
Good for you. There are some things best left unknown. And that is no joke. It is sarcasm.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.
So what has happened in academia re:drugs is similar to what has happened re:politics.
And you are surprised? Evidently.
The right is as stupid about drugs as the left is about politics in general. There are things each side doesn't wish to know. And yet the right holds itself out as THE paragons of virtue and knowledge.
As a friend of mine likes to say: "funniest end of civilization ever."
And you are surprised? Evidently.
The right is as stupid about drugs as the left is about politics in general. There are things each side doesn't wish to know. And yet the right holds itself out as THE paragons of virtue and knowledge.
As a friend of mine likes to say: "funniest end of civilization ever."
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.
OK Diogenes,
Tell me the people reported on in the below article are into fantasy escape
http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/2004/09/heroin.html
Further please explain why they don't deserve pain relief.
Also note that the prescription of opiates for the condition described will get the doctor doing the prescribing a call from the DEA. Is that really the kind of country you want to live in? Evidently.
When what I wrote in the article becomes common knowledge the right is going to take a BIG hit. Is that what you want? To turn the country over to the socialists? Again.
I'm doing everything in my power to make it common knowledge. And I'm gaining ground.
Let me explain it in words you might possibly understand:
People take pain relievers for pain relief.
Just because medicine doesn't currently recognize the pain, there is no reason to believe that it will always remain the case. Not if there is anything I can do about it. And I have been successful in these types of campaigns before. Heh.
The history of fibromyalgia is instructive. Are you aware of it?
I can see the NYTs headlines now:
Republicans Deny Traumatized Pain Relief
And it will be (generally) true. Who would want to be associated with such people?
The Drug War is the Climate "Science" of the Right.
Tell me the people reported on in the below article are into fantasy escape
http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/2004/09/heroin.html
Further please explain why they don't deserve pain relief.
Also note that the prescription of opiates for the condition described will get the doctor doing the prescribing a call from the DEA. Is that really the kind of country you want to live in? Evidently.
When what I wrote in the article becomes common knowledge the right is going to take a BIG hit. Is that what you want? To turn the country over to the socialists? Again.
I'm doing everything in my power to make it common knowledge. And I'm gaining ground.
Let me explain it in words you might possibly understand:
People take pain relievers for pain relief.
Just because medicine doesn't currently recognize the pain, there is no reason to believe that it will always remain the case. Not if there is anything I can do about it. And I have been successful in these types of campaigns before. Heh.
The history of fibromyalgia is instructive. Are you aware of it?
I can see the NYTs headlines now:
Republicans Deny Traumatized Pain Relief
And it will be (generally) true. Who would want to be associated with such people?
The Drug War is the Climate "Science" of the Right.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.
Ok, so your main critizism of my proposal is that it is not going to be fast enough? I dont quite get that. The moment the government starts handing out drugs way below the street price and way below a price that is profitable for the illegal drug operations, the drug wars will end.
Please give me a reason why you think differently.
I also see no problem with giving drug users medical attention. If they are, as you say just self medicating, then they must have a deeper medical condition (and I do not even disagree with you on that). If they do, then they need medical attention. I want to give it to them. Where is the problem with that?
You can not get any prescription medication without an actual prescription. Why should we make a difference with these drugs, at least for a while until we fully understand every angle of the problem?
It seems to be the resonable thing to do.
Btw, if the US keeps restricting the places where it is allowed to smoke as they have been doing in the last decade, then there wont be a place left where you are allowed to smoke, other than some facility reserved for this purpose. Small step from there to my drug clinics.
One could allow drug users to get their drugs in pharmacies (more reachable), but I would tie this to certain conditions which I have not fully thought out yet.
Please give me a reason why you think differently.
I also see no problem with giving drug users medical attention. If they are, as you say just self medicating, then they must have a deeper medical condition (and I do not even disagree with you on that). If they do, then they need medical attention. I want to give it to them. Where is the problem with that?
You can not get any prescription medication without an actual prescription. Why should we make a difference with these drugs, at least for a while until we fully understand every angle of the problem?
It seems to be the resonable thing to do.
Btw, if the US keeps restricting the places where it is allowed to smoke as they have been doing in the last decade, then there wont be a place left where you are allowed to smoke, other than some facility reserved for this purpose. Small step from there to my drug clinics.
One could allow drug users to get their drugs in pharmacies (more reachable), but I would tie this to certain conditions which I have not fully thought out yet.
I guess if the killing of innocents by government policy doesn't bother you then you must be a true Austrian (yeah - a really cheap shot - truly despicable). Don't worry there are a LOT of True Austrians in America. We have Diogenes for one.Ok, so your main critizism of my proposal is that it is not going to be fast enough? I dont quite get that.
He has never met a problem that couldn't be solve by putting a government gun to people's heads. And occasionally pulling the trigger.
Sun Tzu says that the truly superior general solves his military problems without lifting a sword in anger. My kind of guy.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.
You haven't factored in diversion/theft and the value of time.Please give me a reason why you think differently.
Seriously: drug prohibition is the one place where leftists do the best economic evaluation. Sadly they can't apply that expertise any where else.
Have you watched the 30 minute video yet? Lots of information there.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.
Msimon, you are avoiding my question. Why will it kill many people?
The drugs will be really cheap, much cheaper than on any free market. The users wont die, there wont be a government gun to their heads. I dont quite see where all that would come in.
Please give me a more elaborate answer to that. I want to discuss my proposal not some video.
The drugs will be really cheap, much cheaper than on any free market. The users wont die, there wont be a government gun to their heads. I dont quite see where all that would come in.
Please give me a more elaborate answer to that. I want to discuss my proposal not some video.