Oh the insanity!

[mdeminico]

The problem is that if education is expensive and there are no loans and grants for the people, you will end with a whole lot less educated people out there. Less well educated people means less know how and that means being less competitive on the international stage.
The high prices of education are a real problem in the US.
You have a few very well educated people and a lot of really badly educated people.

"Education" isn't what you think it is.

Education that we see in colleges is the most absurd and stupid thing in existence. Very few people should go to college, those being the ones who work in a very specialized field (Physics, Engineering, Medical, etc).

True Education is this: Learning how to learn. That's what schools should be teaching kids. But they don't. How many people out there have you run into that you tried to explain how to walk themselves through a simple concept, only for them to just completely abandon the idea after 5 minutes?

It's easier for our schools to drill data into people's heads, then give them a test and say "well, we taught 'em!" That's why we have the problems we have today.

9 out of 10 people in society today would be better off taking 5 years reading good books by people like Dale Carnegie, David Schwartz, Ayn Rand, Seth Godin, John Bunyan, John Maxwell, etc...

As far as how expensive this specialized education is, it's expensive because they encourage every idiot and their grandmother to go by giving them GOVERNMENT LOANS.

If schools were forced to find a way to have a reasonable price because NOBODY was willing to drop $15,000 per year (and that's "cheap") on a school because they're paying out of their own pocket, trust me, it'd be a lot cheaper.

[Skipjack]

Personally, I believe the fewer BETTER educated people is better than more numerous "less educated" people, which is the situation we have now.

This is just wrong on so many levels.
First of all, if the average education is worse, then your private schools have less incentive to be better. They only have to be better than the rest in order to get paying students. If the competition from other schools is better, then they have to get better too.
Second, no this is not the situation that you have right now. The situation that you have right now is that you have a few people with insane debt from college (*) that have a good education and a whole lot of very badly educated people.
Third, and I have said this before and I will say this again:
Not everybody who is intelligent is rich enough to afford college and not everyone who is rich enough to afford college is also intelligent (look at your last President). So you are wasting a lot of your nations potential by having the wealth define the educational level. Todays economy is all about know how. In order to have a good know how, you need well trained intelligent people. If you have your intelligent people waste away collecting garbage, you loose. Of course for a behaviourist who still thinks in classes this is hard to understand, but it is the genetics that make you intelligent, not the education and definitely not your wealth.
Fourth, the society always benefits from higher levels of education. This is why there even has been established a mandatory school system for children in about every half developed nation of the world.
Even your average factory worker benefits from a solid education. In contrast to popular believe they can contribute to the quality of the product if they are smarter.
The US does not value their workers as much as e.g. the Germans do (though unfortunately hire and fire is getting more popular here too). You have a hire and fire mentality. The Germans like to keep their workers in place. These workers are not just stupid drones, but often highly trained. It is good to keep their experience on board. This is why the same helicopter produced under license in Germany lifts 20% more than the same one produced in the US.
But again, you guys dont get that and this will ultimately be your undoing.
Another example: I would rather have some well educated soldiers fighting my wars than some complete idiots. There may be a situation where they would have to solve a mathematical equation somewhere in the field, all by themselves in order to save a mission. If you have a bunch of uneducated idiots, you can scrap that one... I definitely would rather my life depended on well educated and well trained people than on some uneducated hicks that like to "be shoot'n their guns".
But you dont have to take my word for it, ask the jews what they think about that. They have the probably best educated people in the world!

*unless they are the few lucky children of some insanely rich bastards.

[Skipjack]

True Education is this: Learning how to learn. That's what schools should be teaching kids. But they don't. How many people out there have you run into that you tried to explain how to walk themselves through a simple concept, only for them to just completely abandon the idea after 5 minutes?

What a pile of bullcrap!
And how do you teach people how to learn? By actually teaching them something! That is how!
Oh, btw I have not met many people like you describe. Must be, because people here are generally more educated than they are in the US.

9 out of 10 people in society today would be better off taking 5 years reading good books by people like Dale Carnegie, David Schwartz, Ayn Rand, Seth Godin, John Bunyan, John Maxwell, etc...

Again, bullshit!

[KitemanSA]

Skipjack,
Please restrain yourself in your selection of language.
A simple statement of disagreement would have done nicely.
Thank you.

[mdeminico]

True Education is this: Learning how to learn. That's what schools should be teaching kids. But they don't. How many people out there have you run into that you tried to explain how to walk themselves through a simple concept, only for them to just completely abandon the idea after 5 minutes?

What a pile of bullcrap!
And how do you teach people how to learn? By actually teaching them something! That is how!
Oh, btw I have not met many people like you describe. Must be, because people here are generally more educated than they are in the US.

9 out of 10 people in society today would be better off taking 5 years reading good books by people like Dale Carnegie, David Schwartz, Ayn Rand, Seth Godin, John Bunyan, John Maxwell, etc...

Again, bullshit!

Do you know how many of your replies to everyone and their grandmother starts with "bullcrap"? Either you're the fountain of all knowledge, or you just like saying "bullcrap".

Regardless...

You don't teach someone how to learn by drilling them with information over and over and over. That's called teaching them how to memorize facts, and it relates to the real world in about 5% of situations. It's how robots respond to the world, they see a specific situation they were told about before, and they respond in the way they were taught to respond.

Now about how "bullcrap" my suggestion to 9 out of 10 people is...

I happen to know a small group of people who did exactly what I said, reading good books, teaching other people those same principles, and applying them in a small business environment:

- One dropped out of college at 19 years old to focus on this type of education and is now top salesman in a professional sales organization making roughly 100k/year.
- One was just elected State Representative in a very competitive election at the ripe old age of 30 years old.
- One is mentoring with the owner of a very large business empire consisting of multiple franchises.
- One is owner and operator of two successful small businesses, as well as holding down a critical position within a large research firm, handling multiple multi-million dollar projects.
- One dropped out of his MBA program at one of the top business schools in the country and is now a multi-millionaire, as well as a best-selling author and international speaker.
- One left a high paying engineering job at a very large firm to focus on this education like all the others, and is also a multi-millionaire best-selling author and international speaker, much like the previous guy.

And this is only the people I know *personally* and have spent hours on end with them both personally and professionally.

Finally, I know many people (one guy in particular) who started in this type of education, but decided it was more important to finish his college engineering education. Seven years after graduating, he's still living with his parents and working odd jobs to get a little bit of money from time to time.

[Skipjack]

You don't teach someone how to learn by drilling them with information over and over and over. That's called teaching them how to memorize facts, and it relates to the real world in about 5% of situations.

Did I say to do that? Did I say that? No, I did not! But some facts have to be learned. Most of all, people have to be able to do a sufficient amount of math and they need to know at least one foreign language, better two.
They should also know to spell correctly and they should know their grammar. They should have a good understanding of physics, chemistry and also geography as well as biology. Yes, in order to do some of these things well, you have to learn some facts, but a lot of this is also about understanding the principles, more than it is about drilling facts into people by repetition (which is the Suzuki method of learning and not good).

Skipjack,
Please restrain yourself in your selection of language.
A simple statement of disagreement would have done nicely.
Thank you.

After having been called "born stupid" by DeltaV in another threat (which for some weird reason did not trigger a response by you), I felt the need for restraint in my choice of words was uncalled for.
So expect me to keep saying bullshit a lot more often, especially since what people let loose is just that.

One dropped out of college at 19 years old to focus on this type of education and is now top salesman in a professional sales organization making roughly 100k/year.
- One was just elected State Representative in a very competitive election at the ripe old age of 30 years old.
- One is mentoring with the owner of a very large business empire consisting of multiple franchises.
- One is owner and operator of two successful small businesses, as well as holding down a critical position within a large research firm, handling multiple multi-million dollar projects.
- One dropped out of his MBA program at one of the top business schools in the country and is now a multi-millionaire, as well as a best-selling author and international speaker.
- One left a high paying engineering job at a very large firm to focus on this education like all the others, and is also a multi-millionaire best-selling author and international speaker, much like the previous guy.

What do these random examples that proof? Nothing!
I dont have a finished college education either, mainly because there was no such thing for my field when I started. I was actually asked to teach in colleges. The thing is, I do have a very good general education compared to most US citizens. Austrian High Schools do teach a broader spectrum of knowledge. Most US citizens dont get that level of education unless they have at least had 2 years of college.

[mdeminico]

Did I say to do that? Did I say that? No, I did not!

You are a very angry person aren't you?











I'll work on responding to the rest of your post slowly...

[mdeminico]

...and they need to know at least one foreign language, better two.

Um, why? You see, here in the United States of America, we speak the language of international business. If your native language is Slovenian, as my great grandparents' native language was, then yes, you need to learn a new language if you want to succeed in international business. However, if they simply wanted to own a shop in Slovenia, they'd have been wasting their time learning any foreign language that wasn't directly applicable to a very large percentage of their customers.

They should also know to spell correctly and they should know their grammar. They should have a good understanding of physics, chemistry and also geography as well as biology. Yes, in order to do some of these things well, you have to learn some facts, but a lot of this is also about understanding the principles, more than it is about drilling facts into people by repetition (which is the Suzuki method of learning and not good).

I think we agree that learning the basics and fundamentals (that set the foundation for further learning) is critical. And as you mentioned, they need to be taught by not drilling info over and over (like that "my baby can read" crap we see here in the US).

However, my belief is the absolute fundamentals are reading, writing, and arithmetic. All the others are electives, though they should be vigorously pursued on an individual basis if you ask me. My understanding of history has been applicable to any number of business decisions I've made.

One dropped out of college at 19 years old to focus on this type of education and is now top salesman in a professional sales organization making roughly 100k/year.
- One was just elected State Representative in a very competitive election at the ripe old age of 30 years old.
- One is mentoring with the owner of a very large business empire consisting of multiple franchises.
- One is owner and operator of two successful small businesses, as well as holding down a critical position within a large research firm, handling multiple multi-million dollar projects.
- One dropped out of his MBA program at one of the top business schools in the country and is now a multi-millionaire, as well as a best-selling author and international speaker.
- One left a high paying engineering job at a very large firm to focus on this education like all the others, and is also a multi-millionaire best-selling author and international speaker, much like the previous guy.

What do these random examples that proof? Nothing!
I dont have a finished college education either, mainly because there was no such thing for my field when I started. I was actually asked to teach in colleges. The thing is, I do have a very good general education compared to most US citizens. Austrian High Schools do teach a broader spectrum of knowledge. Most US citizens dont get that level of education unless they have at least had 2 years of college.

So assuming you're as successful as you say you are, you're proof of my point: Self-taught learning is more effective than most college programs, even in the case of some specialized career fields like sciences.

Case in point: Thomas Edison was kicked out of school because he was "too dumb to be taught".

[KitemanSA]

Skipjack,
Please restrain yourself in your selection of language.
A simple statement of disagreement would have done nicely.
Thank you.

After having been called "born stupid" by DeltaV in another threat (which for some weird reason did not trigger a response by you), I felt the need for restraint in my choice of words was uncalled for.
So expect me to keep saying bullshit a lot more often, especially since what people let loose is just that.

I can understand that you may feel put upon, but please consider these points. First, I do not read all posts so I may not have seen that. Second, the words "born" and "stupid" are not in and of themselves considered vulgar while the words you used are. If I see him calling you a "sh..head" or some such, I probably will call him on it in the future. Third, I am new to this "moderation" stuff myself (no, I am not a "forum moderator", I just hope to moderate the discussion by peaceful comment now and then). Thus there can be no "balance" for the first recipients, just tolerance please!
Thank you.

[Skipjack]

You are a very angry person aren't you?

Yes and bitter too
I just dont like it when people put things into my mouth then critizise me for it.

Um, why? You see, here in the United States of America, we speak the language of international business.

I agree with you that english is the most important language in the world. But, it is important to understand you opponent and in order to do that, it is good to learn his language (of course you can not learn all languages on this planet and all the languages of all people you will ever deal with, but it is IMHO good to have at least more than one language in the repertoire).
IMHO the way we think is largely affected by the language we speak and now we write. E.g. the creativity of chinese people is limited by the fact that creating new words and complex sentences is very difficult in their langauge. German has a much more complex grammar than english, latin is probably the most complex one and french is not that simple either. Learning any of these languages will allow you better understand the people using them.
I speak English, German (native speaker) and I learned French and Latin in school (not that much left of it right now, but I am sure I would get back into it quickly, if I had the chance). I have also dabbled a bit with nihongo (japanese), but did not get far. Japanese interestingly has some similarities to Latin (order of words in sentences) and other languages in terms of vocabulary. E.g. "pan" means bread. You will find simillar words for this in both Latin and French. Anyway, just by spending a few days with japanese I got a completey new insight into the culture. Since I do business with the Japanese, this does benefit me directly, even though I do my business in English. No, I did not have to go to school for that, but what I learned at School did help me with that.

However, if they simply wanted to own a shop in Slovenia, they'd have been wasting their time learning any foreign language that wasn't directly applicable to a very large percentage of their customers.

I dont think that learning anything can ever be a waste of time. It is the only thing that nobody can ever take from you (unless you somehow get amnesia or dementia). There is always some use that can get from any knowledge that you have. Jeeze, I can tell you how many times I wished for our postal workers to at least know enough English to understand "to" and "from".... Among those blind idiots, even someone with rudimentary English skills is king...

Kiteman, I will show some more restraint. I just sometimes get frustrated and I vent it that way. I do want to say though I try to never call people directly names, unless they really call me out.

[Giorgio]

...and they need to know at least one foreign language, better two.

Um, why? You see, here in the United States of America, we speak the language of international business. .

Skipjack has a point here.
English was the language of international business but this is changing rapidly with the loss of economic predominance of the American Economy.

Chineese (Mandarin or Cantonese), Indian, Portoguese. These will be most probably the Business languages of this century.

English will keep his predominance in Aereonautics and (maybe) also in Scientific pubblications.

[Skipjack]

I think the importance of a language is defined by the amount of scientific publications written in it. AFAIK, these are English followed by (I think still) German. I dont know about the others. I would guess mandarin and spanish to be runner ups. French sure is somewhere in there too...
India is still oficially speaking English, at least that is what I thought.

[Giorgio]

India is still oficially speaking English, at least that is what I thought.

English is the second official language, the first being Hindi. Than each state has the right to promote his official language. Is quite a mess

[Skipjack]

Is quite a mess

Yeah, seems so, just like the rest of that country.

[choff]

One reason for the success of the English language is, people who use it are entirely willing to adopt words from other languages. They have language police in Quebec to prevent English corruption of French, even China is beginning to crack down on the English infiltration of Mandarin.