If we had just kept the F-22 production line funded...

[AcesHigh]

Yeah, because defending another free nation from the aggression of a totalitarian state is wrong... So we should just pitch them to the Chinese wolves.

what a bunch of bullshit... "free nation"... "totalitarian state".

the chinese are pretty happy with what they have right now, even though its a totalitarian state. Taiwan itself is just a rebellious chinese sect. China should annex them again, now that they arent communist anymore. But they dont even need to.

Taiwan is already dependant on China. They will soon be asking to be annexed. Of course, not their politicians, after all, politicians are more interested in keeping countries independent because its their jobs in the line.

[AcesHigh]

Without even bothering to look at other data, I have a point to make to you... There's this little thing going on right now, it's called a war. And it costs a LOT of money to keep hundreds of thousands of soldiers fed, in uniform, in field, and with salaries. Not to mention the logistics costs, equipment cost, etc.

a little thing going on right now? Its hard even to remember the last time the US DID NOT have a war going on, exactly because the US needs constant wars to justify all the spending in its military complex. And fools like you help this industry.

[DeltaV]

the 2011 US military budget is larger than the military budget of all other countries in the world combined

Wrong. The US annual defense budget also includes about 50,000,000,000 for health care alone, probably much more for other non-weapons/training budget items. I'd bet the numbers for most of the other countries don't include such items.

[happyjack27]

the 2011 US military budget is larger than the military budget of all other countries in the world combined

Wrong. The US annual defense budget also includes about 50,000,000,000 for health care alone, probably much more for other non-weapons/training budget items. I'd bet the numbers for most of the other countries don't include such items.

such conjecture does not make me wrong. even if these were demonstable facts and not conjecture, that still would not make what i said false.

in fact, if you add up all the numbers vs. us, i think us comes out just a under the sum total of all others combined. so there is a _little_ exagerration, but surprisingly - alarmingly - very little. and if you remove the (other) psychotic nations like china, the comparison is much worse.

[DeltaV]

Uhm, that is exactly what the US did in WW1 and also WW2. You virtually cranked up your weapons production over night and produced so much that you just overran your enemies with masses of weapons.

Last time I checked, there were no F-22s or anything comparable used in WW1/WW2. But following your comment, if Boeing can produce almost 7000 B-17s in 4 years, then China can produce several thousand J-20s in 10 years. It won't take 30 years to get the first one off the line like it did the with F-22. Most of the F-22 "secrets" are already out in the public domain (that's what happens in non-dictatorships). Plenty of Google users in PLAAF.

Since when did China and Russia become strategic partners?
Last time I checked, they did not like each other.

You didn't check very well:
viewtopic.php?p=48961&highlight=&sid=c0 ... 73f8#48961

As we had established in this thread (or some other thread on this board) earlier, China is not interested in instability and war on the Korean peninsula, it is bad for business.

We established nothing. You expressed an opinion.

How many of those are there still?
Cuba, North Korea and uhm...?
China is not communist anymore. It is a capitalistic dictatorship. No communist ideology there since Deng Xiaoping took over.

You forgot one:
viewtopic.php?p=51608&highlight=&sid=c0 ... 73f8#51608

[DeltaV]

the chinese are pretty happy with what they have right now, even though its a totalitarian state.

Wrong. They are happier with what they have than with what they had. Still not what they want. Just ask the people who were in Tiananmen Square in 1989. Ask the ones who were "disappeared" (if you can find one alive), or those under house arrest for wanting free elections.

[DeltaV]

J-20 - Denial Is Not An Option

[Skipjack]

You didn't check very well:
viewtopic.php?p=48961&highlight=&sid=c0 ... 73f8#48961

Uhm, well if you want to call that strategic partners...
Remember Russia and China used to be in a decades long dispute over a piece of land...

But following your comment, if Boeing can produce almost 7000 B-17s in 4 years, then China can produce several thousand J-20s in 10 years.

And what is your point? Just because China could theoretically produce several thousand fighters within a decade at a huge economic cost for no real reason at all, you want to keep spending billions on planes that have no war to fight and all that in a time of such economic problems?!!
Also, if China can do so, then so can the US in case it would ever have to.

You forgot one:

Which one?

[Skipjack]

Just ask the people who were in Tiananmen Square in 1989.

Dude, that was 21 years ago!
I am not saying that China is now governed by holy men, but the country has changed and things have gotten better.
Besides, I think it was Deng Xiaoping that told Nixon something along the lines of:
"We now have 1 billion Chinese. Do you really want us to open our borders and let them all travel whereever they want to?"
I have to agree with Nixon that he kinda had a point there.

[DeltaV]

Uhm, well if you want to call that strategic partners...

Do you just pretend to be stupid, or were you born that way?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai_C ... ganization

Remember Russia and China used to be in a decades long dispute over a piece of land...

Dude, that was 41 years ago!

And what is your point? Just because China could theoretically produce several thousand fighters within a decade at a huge economic cost for no real reason at all, you want to keep spending billions on planes that have no war to fight and all that in a time of such economic problems?!!

(Must have been born that way.) What makes you think they don't/won't have a "real" reason? Are you a Politburo insider too, now? What's worse, spending a small percentage of the US Federal Budget as insurance, or letting unelected dictators have air superiority? I'd rather let elected dictators have air superiority. Regarding F-22s, which are the topic of this thread (NOT the entire US defense budget, contrary to you and your comrades) most of that money has already been spent, and was then wasted by premature termination of a fully functioning production line.

Also, if China can do so, then so can the US in case it would ever have to.

Not anytime soon. As you yourself said, "a time of such economic problems". The Chinese Politburo does not have such restrictions since their economy is booming in comparison, due in part to their manipulation of China's currency. Even if they were as economically challenged as the US, they could still order production and jail whoever objected. You know, just like Hitler did (Hitler, the guy who annexed Austria).

Which one?

Take a SWAG (Scientific Wild-Ass Guess).

[DeltaV]

And lest we forget...



Sukhoi PAK-FA




[Edit: fixed dead link. Twice.]

[mdeminico]

Yeah, because defending another free nation from the aggression of a totalitarian state is wrong... So we should just pitch them to the Chinese wolves.

what a bunch of bullshit... "free nation"... "totalitarian state".

the chinese are pretty happy with what they have right now, even though its a totalitarian state. Taiwan itself is just a rebellious chinese sect. China should annex them again, now that they arent communist anymore. But they dont even need to.

Taiwan is already dependant on China. They will soon be asking to be annexed. Of course, not their politicians, after all, politicians are more interested in keeping countries independent because its their jobs in the line.

Yes Mr Goebbels, it is obvious to everyone that the Chinese people are happy with their government. It's the most free nation on the earth, full of individual liberty.

If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it...
- Joseph Goebbels

Here's just one story about that "free nation":
http://www.freegao.com/

[Skipjack]

What makes you think they don't/won't have a "real" reason?

Well what reason would that be then, Mr Condescending?

Not anytime soon. As you yourself said, "a time of such economic problems".

The US still has a stronger economy than China, last time I checked anyway...

The Chinese Politburo does not have such restrictions since their economy is booming in comparison, due in part to their manipulation of China's currency.

And because of the US outsourcing much of its production to China without being forced to do so, actually. Not a single gunshot fired, not a single threat, nothing.

Even if they were as economically challenged as the US, they could still order production and jail whoever objected.

And ruin their booming economy in the process. No, only americans are stupid enough to spend more on defense than what they can afford.

You know, just like Hitler did (Hitler, the guy who annexed Austria).

There we go again. You are pathetic.

Take a SWAG (Scientific Wild-Ass Guess).

Sorry, I cant think of any anymore. Communism is dead and rightfully so.
I think even Vietnam stopped being communistic a while ago (though I might be wrong here since I have not really looked that up or so).

[mdeminico]

Sorry, I cant think of any anymore. Communism is dead and rightfully so.
I think even Vietnam stopped being communistic a while ago (though I might be wrong here since I have not really looked that up or so).

Shipjack, I know you're smarter than this...

As long as Socialism exists, Communism will never be dead. Communism is simply "grown up Socialism". You can NOT have Socialism long term without it becoming full fledged Communism.

Sooner or later, some people will stand up and say "I'm sorry, no, you cannot steal half of my property to hand out to everyone else". At that point, the government either must say "ok, we won't take it", in which case it will collapse, OR it must put a gun to that person's head and blow his brains out if he does not comply.

[GIThruster]

I complained of no such thing. Go back and read my posts, and stop putting words in my mouth. What I complained about was that a 30 year long program, F-22, was terminated before a sufficient number of planes were produced to avoid having to do it all over again in a few years.

It's a worthy point, that after spending $65 billion in development, you'd want more than 187 planes built. OTOH, unmanned craft are much cheaper to design, build and test. The test program on the X-44 Manta probably went right into UCAV development and it would not be a huge surprise if tailless UCAV's already exist that vastly outperform the F-22. If that's true, or near true anytime soon, then it really doesn't make much sense to build more F-22's.