Libertarian pushing morality?

[MSimon]

And the value of the Wall of Separation?

Imagine a time when Islam (or some other religion not currently majoritarian) is a majority religion in America. Would you want a wall of separation then?

The problem with folks pushing to join the State with religion is a lack of imagination.

We saw that very thing evolve over 150 years with the public school movement which was originally designed as a Protestant indoctrination program (thus the rise of Catholic and Jewish schools outside the public school movement). But that one got away from them and now it is socialists doing the indoctrination.

With the best (?) of intentions a great evil was created.

Under what conditions would you want a Wall of Separation? When you are a minority religion.

[MSimon]

Americans also might want to look at what joining the State with religion has done to the vitality of religion in Europe.

I blame the current push to join religion and State by some to be caused by both a lack of imagination about the future and a lack of knowledge about the past.

Ignorance and dullness is a deadly combination.

[TDPerk]

"I blame the current push to join religion and State"

There is no such thing, MSimon. Not merely not to any new degree, but among the "usual suspects" less than in recent times.

[Skipjack]

Msimon, thank you for putting my thoughts on this topic into words.
This time we are completely in line.

[hanelyp]

History tells us that too close a bond between Church and State is good for neither. We also need to remember that atheism and worship of the State are themselves religions.

[Skipjack]

Austria had a very interesting period right before Hitler took over. It was called Austro Fascism. The christian social party (!!!!!) a catholic church oriented christian party established a terror regime in Austria. Another reason why Hitler was met with so little resistance. Some people still say that if the Austrofascists had had more time, they would have been worse than the Nazis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austrofascism

[Diogenes]

Your pockets of secularism could not exist at all if Christianity hadn't smoothed the angry waters into tolerating them.

Actually it was the anti-clerical Enlightenment that did that job.

And this may very well be the case. It might be that the Enlightenment needed what came before it to cause it to happen. I simply observed a couple of decades ago (in a discussion with an atheist who alleged that Christianity held back science) that the most advanced parts of the World happened to be the most Christian parts of the world. ( A condition which has since been changing for the last century. The "other" non Christian parts of the world are catching up as the formerly Christianized parts devolve into hedonism and apathy. )

Woe be unto unto you if you were of the wrong religion in 1400s Catholic Spain. And Spain was only the worst of that time.

No doubt. But compared to the Muslim and Atheistic periods, the Inquisition and other oppressions were times of love and tranquility. It doesn't have to be measured from a zero scale, but from a relative one. It's sort of a base line budgeting thing.

The disabilities heaped on Jews by Christian Europe pre-enlightenment tends to cast doubt on your proposition.

Europe has never been very Jew friendly (for very long) and they are reverting to their old ways. Zionism was a response to to the old ways.

Yup, and the smartest people in the world sure seem to have trouble realizing what's coming, and inexplicably they continue to support ideas and policies which are bringing back the darkness. (Except for the orthodox. Only they seem to have a clue.)

BTW the uniting of religion and State goes back to the Egyptians. When they conquered a tribe the tribal religion was incorporated into the Egyptian religion. Thus the attributes of the gods changed over time. Egypt is no longer the power it once was. But they triumphed in the end. The Osiris story lives on. It took 300 some years before the belief that Jesus was not The Maker was declared a heresy. And it took a few more centuries before that heresy was mostly stamped out (and a lot of the stamping was done by force).

IMO if every person recognized their direct connection to the Maker religion would be superfluous. Clericals prey on that lack of connection i.e. religion as we know it (publicly) is a con.

Faith is very handy for governments. It can cover up a lot of malfeasance.

Joining religion to State has never been a good thing. Except for the members of the State religion. What does that conjoining get you? People whose belief is political rather than from conviction. i.e. manipulators. We see that all the time in the US. "Pay no attention to the State stealing you blind with my acquiescence if not connivance. I have the right beliefs." There is a well know huckster in the US running for President under that rubric.

BTW the same tension we see being played out in the US re: its major religion is played out in another secular State with respect to its major religion. Israel. Israel may be a State for Jews but it is definitely not a Jewish State. And some folks living there consider the State illegitimate for that reason.

I think it is instinctive among people to try to push a sort of homogeneity. Advocacy of common beliefs is one way in which people try to create this condition. Religion is a manifestation of such.

[Diogenes]

And the value of the Wall of Separation?

Imagine a time when Islam (or some other religion not currently majoritarian) is a majority religion in America. Would you want a wall of separation then?

The problem with folks pushing to join the State with religion is a lack of imagination.

We saw that very thing evolve over 150 years with the public school movement which was originally designed as a Protestant indoctrination program (thus the rise of Catholic and Jewish schools outside the public school movement). But that one got away from them and now it is socialists doing the indoctrination.

With the best (?) of intentions a great evil was created.

Under what conditions would you want a Wall of Separation? When you are a minority religion.

I believe these sentiments are the result of a serious misunderstanding about the meanings and intentions of the people who wrote and ratified our Governing document. By the understanding of today, the term "Denomination" would be more accurate.

Yes, Jefferson and Thomas Payne, and perhaps even James Madison might have actually meant to treat all religions equally the same, but I very much doubt that the State Legislators (You know, the people who actually RATIFIED the document for their state.) saw it the same way. I'm pretty sure they read it to mean simply that there would be no National preference for one Christian denomination over all the others. The notion that it would be interpreted to grant equal standing between Christian and non Christian religions was simply incomprehensible to these men. Many of these states cited Christianity as a requirement to serve in any official capacity. It would be peculiar to believe that they could simply cast aside what was previously a cherished belief and a part of their laws. I contend they either didn't interpret it that way, or they simply didn't notice it sufficiently to arouse their concern.
I have read reams of quotes and parts of history from this era. I think the only reason people nowadays believe that "Separation of Church and State" is part of the US Constitution is because they are seriously disconnected from the Zeitgeist of that era.


For years, Liberals preached that the Second Amendment meant people could join the National Guard, and Finally we got the Supreme court (by a five/four decision. Of course the four idiot Liberals can't understand plain and clear English.) to declare that the Second Amendment meant people had a right to own and carry guns.

This "Separation of Church and State" stuff is just more of the same crap they were trying to sell us on the Second Amendment. They were wrong (or lying) in their understanding of that, and they are wrong (or lying) in their understanding of this.

[Diogenes]

Americans also might want to look at what joining the State with religion has done to the vitality of religion in Europe.

I blame the current push to join religion and State by some to be caused by both a lack of imagination about the future and a lack of knowledge about the past.

Ignorance and dullness is a deadly combination.

I think religion was designed to serve in lieu of knowledge about the past. It's much easier and more effective (for newbies) to learn not to do things because a religion says so, than to learn all the moral lessons discovered by their ancestors at a dire cost to themselves.

[Diogenes]

Austria had a very interesting period right before Hitler took over. It was called Austro Fascism. The christian social party (!!!!!) a catholic church oriented christian party established a terror regime in Austria. Another reason why Hitler was met with so little resistance. Some people still say that if the Austrofascists had had more time, they would have been worse than the Nazis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austrofascism

Well, while we're on the Subject of Hitler, is this an appropriate time to point out that the Nazi party at the time Hitler joined it was a sort of Homosexual swingers club? (I believe I read that in "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" by William L. Shirer.)

Thank God they weren't Knights of Columbus! They might have been far worse!



Who would of thought that an organization that started out as a Homosexual party club (William Shirer) would meld with communists, (Erik yon Kuehnelt-Leddihn) and the leader would become addicted to paranoid inducing drugs, (High Hitler, the History Channel) and turn into a mass murderer of innocents?

[Skipjack]

Yeah, the Nazis were gay bastards from Mars with occult superpowers given to them by the devil in person. We all know that!

Anyway, I think you were missing, or ignoring(?) the actual point of my post. But yeah, thanks for reminding me of the gay Nazis. I almost forgot.

[mdeminico]

I have here a copy of the Constitution. Would you be so kind as to show me where the words "Separation of Church and State" appear in it?

The Constitution does not have anything about a right to eat your own food. And yet we are thought to have that right.

The Constitution doesn't give us our rights. It outlines which rights the government can infringe upon, and in some cases when they wanted to be absolutely clear, they also said which ones they cannot infringe upon.

[MSimon]

No doubt. But compared to the Muslim and Atheistic periods, the Inquisition and other oppressions were times of love and tranquility.

Jews have very long memories of this sort of thing. The expulsions. The pogroms. The disabilities (ghettos) etc. Practiced by Christians. Today we consider such behavior unChristian. It was not always so.

Jewish emancipation in Europe (not entirely successful - see WW2) didn't really get underway until around the 1850s. And Jews were not fully emancipated in America (quotas) until post WW2. See the movie "Gentleman's Agreement."

And for some periods before that Jews had better treatment under Islam than under the Christians.

This is a fairly good article on the subject:

https://www.commentarymagazine.com/view ... 223?page=2

[Diogenes]

No doubt. But compared to the Muslim and Atheistic periods, the Inquisition and other oppressions were times of love and tranquility.

Jews have very long memories of this sort of thing. The expulsions. The pogroms. The disabilities (ghettos) etc. Practiced by Christians. Today we consider such behavior unChristian. It was not always so.

Jewish emancipation in Europe (not entirely successful - see WW2) didn't really get underway until around the 1850s. And Jews were not fully emancipated in America (quotas) until post WW2. See the movie "Gentleman's Agreement."

And for some periods before that Jews had better treatment under Islam than under the Christians.

This is a fairly good article on the subject:

https://www.commentarymagazine.com/view ... 223?page=2

I am not making light of the evils done to Jews. (and others such as the Waldensians, etc.) I am pointing out that compared to what the non-Christians (such as Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, etc.) have done, it was relatively tame.

The body pile of the Non-Christians is about a thousand times bigger than the body pile of the so called "Christians." (Who were acting contrary to their own teachings and beliefs.)

By the way, I followed your link and read the articles there. They are quite good, and likewise reflect my own understanding of the issue.

[Diogenes]

Yeah, the Nazis were gay bastards from Mars with occult superpowers given to them by the devil in person. We all know that!

Anyway, I think you were missing, or ignoring(?) the actual point of my post. But yeah, thanks for reminding me of the gay Nazis. I almost forgot.

Has anyone ever heard the term Syncronicity? Well look what I found!

Funny how this book would pop out just at the time I mentioned this topic.




Were Nazis a homosexual, pagan cult?
That's the conclusion of updated classic 'The Pink Swastika'

It's a book that is disturbing, compelling and persuasive on its major point – that homosexuals dominated the German Nazi Party from its birth through its catastrophic demise.

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=247121


Edit: Okay, I looked at the dates and the overlap isn't sufficient to be regarded as "Syncronicity" but still...