I have been thinking about this for a while...

[Skipjack]

... and here is some confirmation of my thoughts.
The west is going to hell. Our education sucks, our people are lazy and our corporations sell whats left of our know how off to China:

http://nextbigfuture.com/2010/12/americ ... n-chu.html

Good luck with that strategy. If things go on like that, we will all soon look up to China as the new superpower. It might already be to late though. From nothing there comes nothing and with education being as bad as it is, with the US putting religion over science (e.g. stem cells) and Europe putting ideology over science (genetics), we have already fallen behind in biotechnology. Our education is bad, terrible in Europe, even worse in the US. That was one of the things that Obama was right about in his campaign. We need a better education, better schools, better universities, more people with university degrees. Of course with the cost of university degrees in the US and a declining quality of universities and an also increasing cost in Europe, this is not going to happen either.

[DeltaV]

The best way to fix education in the US is to abolish the federal Dept. of Education. This would also help reduce the ballooning National Debt.

Once the federal government is out of education, there will be a healthy competition between the states to produce the smartest graduates and attract tuition money.

[rjaypeters]

Abolish the US Dept. of Education and the federal moneys spent on local schools, too?

We are caught in a cleft stick. We want great schools (local and unversity) and the professionals (including the US Dept. of Education) tell us those schools will cost more. Are we ready to end the federal money for local schools? And universities?

[Diogenes]

... and here is some confirmation of my thoughts.
The west is going to hell. Our education sucks, our people are lazy and our corporations sell whats left of our know how off to China:

http://nextbigfuture.com/2010/12/americ ... n-chu.html

Good luck with that strategy. If things go on like that, we will all soon look up to China as the new superpower. It might already be to late though. From nothing there comes nothing and with education being as bad as it is, with the US putting religion over science (e.g. stem cells) and Europe putting ideology over science (genetics), we have already fallen behind in biotechnology. Our education is bad, terrible in Europe, even worse in the US. That was one of the things that Obama was right about in his campaign. We need a better education, better schools, better universities, more people with university degrees. Of course with the cost of university degrees in the US and a declining quality of universities and an also increasing cost in Europe, this is not going to happen either.

What you describe is a manifestation of a sickness of spirit. Strangely enough, what you think is the cure, is actually more of the disease.


The root of the problem is MOTIVATION. More accurately, what causes it and what inhibits it. Teach socialism , athiesm and hedonism and you shouldn't be surprised when people behave like socialistic\athiestic hedonists. Suffice it to say, from their perspective, work is for those "other people."

Good news though. Once this component of the tytler cycle is complete, we'll be back on the road to recovery. Might take a few centuries though.

[Skipjack]

If you are right Diogenes, then why is China about to surpass the rest of the world right now (not yet there, but ahead of your country and mine)?
Also, education in Russia is better than in some parts of Europe and the US right now.
The "socialist" France and Sitzerland are among the leading nations in Europe in regards to math and science education quality. How do you explain that?
Heck even Austria is better than the US (and we have definitely seen better times here too).
Besides, I think that this circle is complete bull. History does NOT repeat itself, it never, in no way, has.

[choff]

Where I live, at least a third of the population is from China, wife included, daughter half included. What matters is motivation, and culture. China has come through a rough last century, and education is seen as the way out of poverty.
In the west over the last century, we haven't seen the same level of poverty as China, plus we live in a culture that values sports and instant gratification over academics. We need to fall a very long way before we get the same level of motivation.

[DeltaV]

A uniform, dumbed-down population is easier to simulate and control.
The cumulative behavior of 330 million is easier to predict and control than the behavior of a single individual, just like air molecules.

[Skipjack]

A uniform, dumbed-down population is easier to simulate and control.

I agree with hat. This makes it even more remarkable that education in the dictatoric China is better than in the democratic US.
In Austria and Germany, I think education quality has degraded mostly due to the many immigrants that do not speak German, even in the second generation. This holds back other kids that want to learn, because it slows down the teaching progress. The child of a friend of mine from Vienna was the only german speaking child in its class (primary school).
I would not put my child into a school like that, would rather homeschool it. Situation in Germany is no better, probably even worse than here.
Of course there are more reasons to the degration of education here. One is that our socialists insist on the idiotic notion that "everyone is the same". So they dont distinguish between intelligent kids and kids that... need more help. In order to make sure that everyone "is the same" they have to make the smart ones dumber (as they cant make the "slow" ones, smarter).
So yeah, education here is going to hell too, but the US beats even us, which is remarkable.
Either way, the west has fallen behind and with the education of the next generation lacking like that, it will only get worse.

[KitemanSA]

A uniform, dumbed-down population is easier to simulate and control.

I agree with that. This makes it even more remarkable that education in the dictatoric China is better than in the democratic US.

First, let me state that I too think that the education results in the US leave much to be desired. BUT...
Now I'm going to put a "Clinton". It all depends on what you mean by "education". I am quite sure that the ComChis do a better job of training their people in their schools, but I'm not convinced that such training can be truly called "education".

[mdeminico]

You do understand that the founders, when they talked about what was a critical education, were not talking about a technical education? They were talking about a classical education, how to work with people, how to understand human nature, and most importantly, how to maintain a free society.

Who changes the world? The physicist who invents something, or the Henry Ford who hires dozens of those physicists and makes a new product that revolutionizes the way we see the world?

The United States is king of the world in creating entrepreneurs. If China outperforms us in creating regurgitators of technical information, that's fine. We'll hire their expertise and bring the best of the best over here, where they're free to reap the benefits (social and economic) of their technical knowledge.

Besides, the best technical education you'll ever get is teaching yourself how to learn. This world changes so fast that I don't care if you know every single bit of technical information available today in 2010, if you don't have the ability to teach yourself, in five years you're more worthless than a college student, and in ten years, high school students are more useful than you.

[KitemanSA]

Yup. Pretty much what I was alluding to.

[Skipjack]

Well an understanding of math is the basis for any technical and scientific education. US students (and many European students as well) suck at math, according to this study.
Also, read the part about patents filed and technical papers being published.

The founders lived some 250 years ago and were children of their time. What they had to say was important and valid back then, but some things have changed. It would be stupid to insist on a worldview that has long been overtaken by reality . Yes, there are things that are important in education, but math is the basis for any science. I am sure that even they understood that.

[mdeminico]

Well an understanding of math is the basis for any technical and scientific education. US students (and many European students as well) suck at math, according to this study.
Also, read the part about patents filed and technical papers being published.

The founders lived some 250 years ago and were children of their time. What they had to say was important and valid back then, but some things have changed. It would be stupid to insist on a worldview that has long been overtaken by reality . Yes, there are things that are important in education, but math is the basis for any science. I am sure that even they understood that.

It doesn't matter. Science is an elective. Foreign Language is an elective. Computers are an elective. Biology is an elective. Chemistry, physics, etc, etc, etc. All electives.

The primary job of a teacher is to teach a child how to think, not what to think. If you can teach a kid to think for themselves, they'll blow away anyone else.

Unfortunately, our schools teach our kids today how to be mindless regurgitators of information. There's only one way to solve 23 + 42 in their mind, and if you don't do it exactly the way they do, using the same method, you're wrong. I know, not all teachers are like this, and not on all problems, but that thinking permeates our educational system. THAT is a big part of the problem.

[Skipjack]

It is hillarious how people are trying to rationalize the facts in front of them, so that the situation looks better (in their eyes) than it actually is.
IMHO it is worse than it looks.
But yeah, keep drinking the cool aid, the aliens will come and save you all!
Everything will be fine. No need to get on your feet and fight for the future of your people. Some miracle will happen and the US (and Europe) will magically reappear on top again.

mdeminico, so you would rather have your teachers teach this sort of math, I presume?

[mdeminico]

It is hillarious how people are trying to rationalize the facts in front of them, so that the situation looks better (in their eyes) than it actually is.
IMHO it is worse than it looks.
But yeah, keep drinking the cool aid, the aliens will come and save you all!
Everything will be fine. No need to get on your feet and fight for the future of your people. Some miracle will happen and the US (and Europe) will magically reappear on top again.

mdeminico, so you would rather have your teachers teach this sort of math, I presume?

There was someone else recently who talked like you... WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE!!!!!! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!

Who was it... I can't put my finger on it... OH! It was Al Gore!