Electron current in WB6 is confusing

Discuss how polywell fusion works; share theoretical questions and answers.

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Giorgio
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Post by Giorgio »

chrismb wrote:I'm just more and more worried that they have confused beam-target fusions in the wall/magrid with volumetric fusions.
From the few info that Dr. Nebel shared I do not feel this is the case.

chrismb wrote:We need to see proof of isotropic fusions. Just read the history of fusion devices - constant confusions over other origins of fusion, in devices poorly understood and insufficiently instrumented. There is too much egg-on-face in the history of fusion to presume new fusion ideas work out. The probability of egg-on-face is higher than success by orders of magnitude, so it is an odds-on-favourite bet to expect failure.
Unfortunately I tend to agree with you on this.

KitemanSA
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Post by KitemanSA »

chrismb wrote:Why don't electrons go directly to the magrid, and neutralise/hit it?
Two reasons, INERTIA (as in inertial electrostatic...) and "its the magnet, silly".

KitemanSA
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Post by KitemanSA »

chrismb wrote:
Giorgio wrote:I guess we will find out only when they will release some info.
Indeed it appears so. And yet the prevailing logic here is the more successful they are, the less likely we are to hear.

So, essentially, that means we are never going to hear of Polywell's success.
Not until they are too well established to ignore or suppress.

KitemanSA
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Post by KitemanSA »

TallDave wrote: I was really hoping we'd get a picture of WB-7.1 to help clear this up. Maybe in April.
My suspicion is that we won't ever see a picture until they are prepared to patent the innovation. Maybe I will be proved wrong but I believe that is part of the "proprietary data" they are righteously protecting.
Last edited by KitemanSA on Sat Sep 18, 2010 10:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

KitemanSA
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Post by KitemanSA »

Giorgio wrote:
chrismb wrote:We need to see proof of isotropic fusions.
Unfortunately I tend to agree with you on this.
Enter WB 7.1 with improved diagnostics and micro-second resolution. This part was "successfully completed" iaw the EMC2FDC site. Of course, successful tests merely means you get a reliable answer, not necessarily the answer you want! :twisted:

93143
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Post by 93143 »

KitemanSA wrote:
chrismb wrote:Why don't electrons go directly to the magrid, and neutralise/hit it?
Two reasons, INERTIA (as in inertial electrostatic...) and "its the magnet, silly".
Exactly. This was the whole point of magnetically-shielding the grid in the first place; to prevent charged particles from hitting it.

Also, it's roughly spherically-symmetric; if you fire the electron beam at a hole, it has to spread quite a bit to hit the metal. Without the magnetic field, it probably would end up grazing the grid, but...

chrismb
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Post by chrismb »

93143 wrote:
KitemanSA wrote:
chrismb wrote:Why don't electrons go directly to the magrid, and neutralise/hit it?
Two reasons, INERTIA (as in inertial electrostatic...) and "its the magnet, silly".
Exactly. This was the whole point of magnetically-shielding the grid in the first place; to prevent charged particles from hitting it.
"Magnetically-shielded" is as disingenuous and misguided as "magnetically confined". Oh, how people forget Bohm diffusion so readily!

Sure, a strong magnetic field will slow down electrons on a direct path for the magrid, but why would they not get there eventually? They'll just circulate around it a bit and then diffuse in to the magrid. What is the electrons motivation for heading on into the wiffleball when the electric field forces are orders of magnitude more dominant than the inertial forces?

93143
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Post by 93143 »

chrismb wrote:What is the electrons motivation for heading on into the wiffleball when the electric field forces are orders of magnitude more dominant than the inertial forces?
1) They aren't. The inertia of an electron entering the magrid is due entirely to the electric potential it's just traversed, which is the largest one in the system.

2) The electric forces are predominantly towards the centre of the approximately spherical magrid. Once the electrons get close enough that this isn't true any more, they're already moving quite fast.


During injection, the electrons are sufficiently beamlike that they can probably be considered collisionless for the purposes of Bohm diffusion. Their temperature is simply the thermionic emission temperature, which is really really low compared with their beam energy. They should spiral right down the cusps into the core.

Anyway, the electrons don't have to stay off the coils forever. They just have to stay away long enough to allow a decent power balance.

Besides, it's known that plasmas can exhibit significantly less cross-field diffusion than the Bohm result predicts. This plasma in particular is very unusual, such that the term "Bohm diffusion" is probably inappropriate.

D Tibbets
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Post by D Tibbets »

chrismb wrote:
93143 wrote:Normal plasma physics doesn't apply here
Seems that the word 'plasma' is redundant in that comment. :?

I still can't see it. Either ions see an attracting field while electrons see a repulsive field, or...er... ah, whatever!.. I just want to see the damned thing operating, but seems that will never happen because the more successful it is the less we see, so I gather.
A more accurate claim would be : Normal NEUTRAL plasma physics doesn't apply here.

The opposing forces on the negative electrons and the positive ions are easily explained (at least superficially) due to two considerations. The electrons are contained magnetically in excess so the ions see an attractive electrical field (at least near the border of the Wiffleball. The electrons also see a weak local attractive effect due to the ions converging towards the center, This, along with the inertial differences between the ions and electrons results in the ions locally dragging some of the electrons with them towards the center. This mitigates some of the central virtual anode formation, leads to a parabolic potential well instead of a simple square well, while it has some bad effects on Bremstrulung. It is my assumption that the negative space charge dominates the ions and prevents them from following the electrons (local effect) out of the cusps, again in part due to the differences in inertia. If there is an ion/ electron pair that are tightly coupled (local effects dominate over space charges), then once outside the magrid they both see the magrid positive charge. The electron tends to be decelerated, while the ion is accelerated towards the wall. But, if they are coupled the net effect would be zero. IE: no energy loss. The only concern then is external density - arcing- vacuum pumping issues. If the pair is not tightly coupled, (which I understand is the case in in fusion plasma densities and energies, at least as applied to Tokamak conditions), the ion would gain energy and hit the wall, while the electron (most of them) would be recirculated. So, from an energy balance perspective, the energy loss can be still be considered as the electron losses alone. This is where Gauss's law is important. As the magrid potential is not felt by any of the charged particles within the magrid. Only the negative space charge driven by the excess electron current applies.
Simple, yes? :wink:
Or at least it is when you start considering counterstreaming instabilities, wave interactions, pulsations, MHD conditions,thermalization issues, etc, etc.

So, yes, it would be nice to "see the darn thing operating"!

Dan Tibbets
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D Tibbets
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Post by D Tibbets »

chrismb wrote:Why don't electrons go directly to the magrid, and neutralise/hit it?
Why don't the electrons go directly to the magnets in a Tokamak?. The same principles apply, except for some differences in the background electric field - neutral in a Tokamak and negative in the Polywell. Why don't electrons fly straight to the magnets in a focused electron gun? The magnets may be at ground, which is positively charged from the electrons perspective, or they may be at actual positive potentials to further accelerate the electron stream.
Whatever accelerates the electron to its final speed. A transverse magnetic field will turn it to perpendicular directions or reverse it at some acute angle depending on the B field gradiant compared to the gyroradius of the electron at that energy, unless the gryroradius exceeds the magnetic field thickness.
Provided the electron is turned by one gyroradius it is contained till cumulative random walk ExB drift (and a couple of other drift mechanisms that add up to the Bohm diffusion rate) allows it to work its way through the magnetic field. The greater the distance it has to travel- in terns of it's gyroradius , the longer it will be contained. It jumps one gyroradius for each coulumb collision with another electron. This is the advantage of the magnetic containment of the Polywell over the Tokamak. The electron gyroradius is much smaller than the ion gyroradius. The (reasonable?) claim that the ion containment is decoupled from magnetic containment of the much more forgiving electrons, and they are thus confined by the resulting negative space charge. This advantage of only magnetically containing the electrons (or at least minimizing the contribution of magnetic containment of the ions to the final net ion confinement efficiency). Another way to look at is to look at the speeds of the ions. Once they have climbed the potential well, if they are not reversed by the electric field, they hit the Wiffleball border- magnetic domain at relatively slow speeds. So the non upscattered ions have a corresponding small gyroradius. So they are easily containedlonger. This does have a deleterious effect on ion confluence towards the center though.

The electrons presumably do have a higher energy at the edge of the Wiffleball due to negative potential well than they would have in a neutral plasma at the same average temperature, but I assume this effect is minor compared to the advantage gained by the gyroradius advantage of the electron vs ion. I assume this advantage is proportional to the square root of the relative masses. At the same energy, the gyroradius would be ~ 1/60th of a proton. Thus only 1/60th as thick of a magnetic field would be needed to confine it for a given amount of time compared to a Tokamak. This, with some adjustments, allows for the size and/ or density advantage of the Polywell (I assume).

This resistance to the electrons flying directly to the magnets is represented by the GwB factor used in the simulations. The losses directly to unshielded surfaces (cusp losses) dominates this by several orders of magnitude. This is where WB6 demonstrated the importance of this. With conformal surfaces, minimized unshielded surfaces, and spacing that allows recirculation, Bussard, etel expressed the prediction that these cusp loss could, in principle at least, be reduced to levels comparable to ExB drift losses.

Dan Tibbets
Last edited by D Tibbets on Sat Sep 18, 2010 7:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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D Tibbets
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Post by D Tibbets »

Yureka! Or, perhaps I should say Doh! :)
Scanning the second link below, there is some talk of the time dependant decay of the potential well as hot electrons are consumed by the heating of cool electrons. It occured to me that this machine was ~ 1 meter in diameter. WB6 was ~ 30 cm in diameter, and the interior Wiffleball was perhaps ~ 20 cm on avg (guess). This 5X difference in diameter (20cm vs 100 cm or 1 meter) gives a volume difference of ~ 100X. I ignored this when considering densities in M^3 . Using my density of ~ 10^19 particles / M^3 results in ~ 10^17 particles / 0.2 M^3 of neutral gas particles in WB6. With the ~ 40 amps of electron gun current provideing ~ 10^20 hot electrons per second into this same volume, the hot electron delivery rate would be ~ 10^17 hot electrons per millisecond.
Assuming a hot electron confinement time (with recirculation) of a couple of milliseconds there should be ~ 2-3 X 10^17 hot electrons in residence. This would resolve most of my concern.

I've not seen anything addressing the Brillouin limit (BL )directly. But other discussions of Wiffleball performance may address this issue indirectly if one can dig deep enough into the various papers,. Most of my brief search of BL refers to behavior in a torus magnetic scheme. I don't know how much this would apply to a near spherical, nonmagnetic plasma.. The link from earlier posting with a claimed 35X excess over the BL was in a Penning trap type device with (I believe) a near cylindrical plasma shape. I speculate that this may represent an intermediate step between a torus and a sphere (Vigorous hand waving applies). If so a Polywell my be better, based on this shaky assumption. Then there are the magnatized vs nonmagnetic plasma issues...


Some more talk about the Brillouin limit.

viewtopic.php?t=956&sid=77bcdcb1f7db7dd ... 41030dd137


On page 5+ is some discussion of the hot - cold electron issues.

http://www.askmar.com/Fusion_files/Form ... aining.pdf


Dan Tibbets
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KitemanSA
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Post by KitemanSA »

chrismb wrote:
KitemanSA wrote:
chrismb wrote:Why don't electrons go directly to the magrid, and neutralise/hit it?
Two reasons, INERTIA (as in inertial electrostatic...) and "its the magnet, silly".
Sure, a strong magnetic field will slow down electrons on a direct path for the magrid, but why would they not get there eventually? They'll just circulate around it a bit and then diffuse in to the magrid. What is the electrons motivation for heading on into the wiffleball when the electric field forces are orders of magnitude more dominant than the inertial forces?
As far as I know, no one ever stated that they never got to the grid, just that the current to the grid didn't necessarily over-match the potential power produced. IIRC, there has been a number of posts that suggested a 100MW net machine would include a 5-10MW flow to the grid.

But, your question had been "Why don't electrons go directly to the magrid, and neutralise/hit it" which is a whole different question than "why don't any go to the grid eventually". Different question, different answer!

TallDave
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Post by TallDave »

KitemanSA wrote:
TallDave wrote: I was really hoping we'd get a picture of WB-7.1 to help clear this up. Maybe in April.
My suspicion is that we won't ever see a picture until they are prepared to patent the innovation. Maybe I will be proved wrong but I believe that is part of the "proprietary data" they are righteously protecting.
Kite,

I'm taking Rick at his word, meaning what we hear from them is mostly just a function of how much political headwind the review board and the funders feel will blow their way if they poke their heads up. It's certainly a legitimate fear when you look at the history of fusion funding. EMC2 does have people's careers (tied up in that IP) to think of, but I expect them to act more like Google than MSFT if the IP turns out to be worth something.

I'm still holding out hope that if WB-8 is successful and WB-100 is approved (an outcome which I am becoming slightly more optimistic about over time) we will get a major info dump, enough to flesh out a lot of the theory, on the grounds that a ~$100M contract for an economically competitive 100MW net power fusion reactor is just too big a deal to keep under their hats. They might end up being forced to discuss WB-8 results whether they want to or not -- and they might want to, at that point, since headwinds could become tailwinds on the strength of that data.
n*kBolt*Te = B**2/(2*mu0) and B^.25 loss scaling? Or not so much? Hopefully we'll know soon...

TallDave
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Post by TallDave »

93143 wrote:The inertia of an electron entering the magrid is due entirely to the electric potential it's just traversed, which is the largest one in the system.
Just to be sure I'm following you, you're talking emitter>Magrid, right? And when you say "enter" I'm assuming you mean enter the region of the grid rather than the physical grid itself.
2) The electric forces are predominantly towards the centre of the approximately spherical magrid. Once the electrons get close enough that this isn't true any more, they're already moving quite fast.
Yeah, I understood this machine a lot better after looking more closely at ETWs. PWs seem to be most easily understood as ETWs with shielded anode grid and magnetically compressed/confined virtual cathode. Of course, few people have much familiarity with ETWs, either.
n*kBolt*Te = B**2/(2*mu0) and B^.25 loss scaling? Or not so much? Hopefully we'll know soon...

KitemanSA
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Post by KitemanSA »

TallDave wrote: I'm still holding out hope that if WB-8 is successful and WB-100 is approved (an outcome which I am becoming slightly more optimistic about over time) we will get a major info dump, enough to flesh out a lot of the theory, on the grounds that a ~$100M contract for an economically competitive 100MW net power fusion reactor is just too big a deal to keep under their hats.
I made such a comment to chrismb in response to one of his posts as follows:
chrismb: So, essentially, that means we are never going to hear of Polywell's success.
Me: Not until they are too well established to ignore or suppress.
If they are to the point where they are willing to put up $200M for WB100 they are "too well established" to ignore or suppress!
Where you got $100M eludes me, everything has been $150M to $200M depending on fuel.

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