Well Formation Paper

[rcain]

Hi Kiteman,

Ah ok, understood (re. Valencia Paper).

I think what you say is born out by the fact that they did not 'float' the device, - they were using 10 turns at between 100A and 2.5kA (450V, 6cm diameter) for the coils from pulsed power supply. peak field in cusps measured at 0.25T - (slightly more than WB6(?) 0.15T).

as they state:

bottom page 2 -
By using a cylindrical hollow cathode the electron beam generation process is greatly simplified and simultaneously negates the need to float the Polywell for electron acceleration thus reducing the required complexity of the coil power supply.

plus their cathode was 'some distance' from the coil face - it seems not so much passing through the magrid as bouncing off it and hitting the wall that way.

still, got to start somewhere

[chrismb]

Very slowly. I've done almost nothing for months. No tax-payer funds, y'see!

FAMULUS isn't waiting around for g'mnt money, why should you? Unless, of course, your sole purpose in life is to bitch?

I trust you realise that's a pretty unfair comment, which I could answer in so many ways I am a bit stuck on how to comment!

Different projects require different forms and amounts of resource. Why did Bussard not fund Polywell (did he ever fund *any* of it with his own cash, 100%??)? Why has Famulus spent so much money repeating a fusor build that many other amateurs have done on less money with better results?

I dunno. I don't know what Famulus' motivations, aims and objectives are, nor do I know his financial state nor other obligations.

My project has not suffered for funding of the hardware. My problem at the moment is that I have to look after a family and hold down a full time job. What I am doing has never been done before and it takes much more effort building something if you don't know how to build it! Famulus has the advantage that he has followed an existing design. So I need to devote day-time working hours to it, but I cannot as I must work. So I do stuff only occasionally. With salary-substitute funding I could focus on it and take it to a conclusion, and/or use the time to apply for said Gov or VC money. Nothing looks very practical at the moment, it is all just down to time for me. I don't have the time to consider how much time I have (!) to spend looking for time to do what I might need to do to interest anyone enough to get money from them. It all seems a bit cheap, to be honest, asking for donations or whathaveyou, but maybe I should think about such a thing.

One thing can be said; at least Famulus and I are doing something. What are you doing? At least my bitching is first-hand and I bitch directly about the things I care about, whereas you appear to be a second-hand bitcher who only bitches about people bitching. I would tend to suggest my approach is a little more 'authentic' than your bitch^squared approach. Why don't you do some experiments and then you might have at least something to justify why you're comments are so pompous and self-righteous.

[rcain]

"Drift", gentlemen, please...

[D Tibbets]

My reference to fractional well depths of ~ 85% of the drive potential was indeed from WB6 results. I don't have access to this paper. I did briefly look at their 2009 presentation. Their device is apparently ~ 6 cm wide with exposed copper windings (10) on what looks like a teflon (?) plastic spool. The edges are touching. The Small size and the exposed wires (insulating varnish on the wires) would tend to have a much more severe outgassing problem compared to the sealed stainless steel cans of WB2,3,4, and 6. I don't know what their measured background vacuum (and effective neutral pressure) measuremants were, but I suspect they struggled to maintain background pressures below ~ 1 Micron (~ 1/1,000,000 atm) which seems to be a critical pressure for neutral interactions to become non dominate ( also needed to prevent potential well destroying glow discharge/Pashin arcing). The fact that they were limited to ~ 250 volts potential wells would be consistant with this.

I don't know the relative importance of their findings in this limited, but admirable system, but it sounds like they may be in agreement (at least not opposed) to the claims of EMC2.

PS: My experience with gridded fusors is that when I had my best vacuums of ~ 5-8 Microns, I could crank the grid voltage up to ~ 14,000 volts before visible glow dischage started. At that point the pressure would quickly climb beyond ~ 30 Microns and the voltage delivered from my power supply would drop to a few thousand volts. My vacuum chamber is not very clean and there is a lot of stuff that can outgass when bombarded by charged particles (material like epoxy, PVC plastic fittings, etc...) That is at least part of the reason the pressure jumped so much when glow discharge started. The voltage droop might have some correspondence to the collapse of the potential well in a Polywell, though it is difficult to compare as the voltage supplies are different (power capacity, internal current limiting, etc...).

Dan Tibbets

[KitemanSA]

Very slowly. I've done almost nothing for months. No tax-payer funds, y'see!

FAMULUS isn't waiting around for g'mnt money, why should you? Unless, of course, your sole purpose in life is to bitch?

I trust you realise that's a pretty unfair comment, which I could answer in so many ways I am a bit stuck on how to comment!

My project has not suffered for funding of the hardware. My problem at the moment is that I have to look after a family and hold down a full time job. What I am doing has never been done before and it takes much more effort building something if you don't know how to build it!

By this, am I to understand that you are in fact working on a project along these lines? If so, I must have missed that bit of information and I would have to apologize profusely.

What the exchange appeared to me to be was a dig by rcain and a "witty repost" by you.

Assuming his was a serious question and yours was only partly a "witty repost" and partly a serious description of the situation, I am sorry for my shot at you.

Please let us know what you are working on and whether there is anything that we can do to help.

[KitemanSA]

Dan,
Do you have a vacuum chamber and power supply for a fusor? If so, can you describe the set up? Especially the chamber size.

My main aim is to find a chamber that can accept a Polywell of similar size to WB6 but not as powerful (many fewer windings). My intent is to wind a series of Polywells as described in a prior post, starting with a toroidal unit like the WB6 and then moving on to other magnet plan forms.

Could your chamber hold such a machine? If not, how big a unit could it hold assuming the sphere is ~1/2 the interior dimension of the chamber.

Anyone?
Do you ave a chamber that might work?

[rcain]

Thanks for the clarrification Dan. I've pm'd you if you want to take a look at a copy of the paper (ditto any one else, i think Betrugers already circulated). They didnt mention ougassing (or its effects) - from what you say perhaps they should have.

[D Tibbets]

Thanks for the clarrification Dan. I've pm'd you if you want to take a look at a copy of the paper (ditto any one else, i think Betrugers already circulated). They didnt mention ougassing (or its effects) - from what you say perhaps they should have.

I don't know the magnitude of out gassing problems, except hearsay. Nebel mentioned that doing tests on machines smaller than WB6 would be counter productive (the work mentioned in this thread would counter that argument at least in part- at least for those not already in possession of the expermantal database of EMC2, or wishing to confirm or expand on some of the more easily obtained results). The smaller the system the greater the ratio of surface area to volume, and the out gassing is directly proportional to the surface area. Out gassing may not be much of a problem at several hundred Microns. but at sub Micron pressures the out gassing complications become much more difficult to control.

Dan Tibbets

[D Tibbets]

Dan,
Do you have a vacuum chamber and power supply for a fusor? If so, can you describe the set up? Especially the chamber size.

My main aim is to find a chamber that can accept a Polywell of similar size to WB6 but not as powerful (many fewer windings). My intent is to wind a series of Polywells as described in a prior post, starting with a toroidal unit like the WB6 and then moving on to other magnet plan forms.

Could your chamber hold such a machine? If not, how big a unit could it hold assuming the sphere is ~1/2 the interior dimension of the chamber.
...

I built a Polywell Wannabe with permanent magnets of a size similar to this work. It would be sort of equivalent to a WB1. It was mounted in a modified 4 quart pressure cooker bought in a junk store. The magnet diameter is ~ 2.5 inches while the chamber diameter is ~ 8 inches.
I have used several types of power supplies including modified microwave transformers (dangerous), NST and oil burner transformers.
Due to my dirty system and vacuum pump limitations I have been limited to ~ 100 Microns pressure and a few thousand volts. Electrons were provided by a central cathode grid, not electron guns. Gas used was just air. I have not pursued it due to various factors, including no diagnostics other than the ability to take pictures, volt meter, amp meter, etc. lack of better vacuum equipment, truely atrocious woodworking and metal working skills, frustrations in trying to make a electromagnet coil (despite ~ 2 amps through ~ 200 turns I couldn't see any effect on the plasma). If I was to persue it further, I would actually need to look at some of the math .

viewtopic.php?t=1081&
highlight=polywell+wannabe

[EDIT] I have toyed with the idea of building a MPG-1 type machine (copper tubes or heavy wire). The magent copper tubes could be shaped easily , though I'm not certain of the power routing, connections. Is the loops conneted so the current travels as it likes, or is it one serial length of copper tube with the edges held together with insulating epoxy? I don't think it would be difficult to build the electron guns, though I'm again uncertain of the power needed. Of course I would first need to invest in better vacuum equipment and neutron detectors, etc.


To obtain reasonable conditions for a WB6 size machine, the chamber would need to be perhaps a meter in diameter, and good diffusion and/or turbomolecular pumps are needed. Much of the power equipment might be scrounged. Perhaps a few 10's of thousands of dollars might suffice if you have a machinist friend and perhaps an electrical engineer to help. After fighting through the mysteries of vacuum systems and their frustrations, probably the largest expense in time and money needed to actually get useful data may the the difficult diagnostics.
[EDIT] Possibly the easiest diagnostics would be relatively simple neutron detection of D-D fusion. If impressive and consistant enough, this should stimulate in depth research by people with deep pockets.

Dan Tibbets

[KitemanSA]

I have toyed with the idea of building a MPG-1 type machine (copper tubes or heavy wire). The magent copper tubes could be shaped easily , though I'm not certain of the power routing, connections. Is the loops conneted so the current travels as it likes, or is it one serial length of copper tube with the edges held together with insulating epoxy?

My understanding is that the MPG1 was a simple single tube wound per the graphic by tombo. I am not quite sure how it was held together, but it may be that the field was weak enough that it didn't need any other support. However, this was before the "clear cusp" realization so they may have just glued (or even soldered) it together.

It would be very easy (in my mind) to wind a single loop MPG. Indeed, a 4 layer, 16 loop MPG should be fairly easy too. Not only that, but making one with a bowed side configuration would probably be easier than a straight side.

Interested? My main problem is finding a chamber and power supply.

[chrismb]

By this, am I to understand that you are in fact working on a project along these lines? If so, I must have missed that bit of information and I would have to apologize profusely.

Assuming his was a serious question and yours was only partly a "witty repost" and partly a serious description of the situation, I am sorry for my shot at you.

Please let us know what you are working on and whether there is anything that we can do to help.

err.. well. OK. Apology accepted. Sorry for firing off a shot back, if you weren't aware.

I posted some pics up of it - on a previous occasion of me trying to put a stopper in my T-P posts and in a 'final' shot. (For some reason, you guys keep me thinking a little about stuff, which is more than most, so I guess I must come back for the 'debates' )

viewtopic.php?p=38818#38818

[rcain]

Hi Chris,

I recall you kindly gave me sight of your patent application for that idea a year or so ago. Sounded very interesting indeed, though I sympathize with the lack of time/resources needed to progress it.

Did you get your patent app. accepted?

Do you know of anyone else working on similar approaches?

Do you have any diagrams explaining how it works (I remember comming to the conclusion it was some sort of 'inverse magnetron' type device, though my simple mind had a little trouble following the textual descriptions).

Its often struck me it might be useful to organise a 'fusion summer camp/science fair' or something similar where amature researchers can show off their wares, form collaborations, etc. Practicalities aside, it might give a welcome boost to the field. Nothing like it I can see on fusor.net, yet, unless I missed it.