Anybody else watch THX1138, or read Brave New World? You have all these people employed to arrest druggies and guard them in prisons, and all these rehab centers and addiction councilors, and if you legalize drugs, they all become unemployed, ain't gonna happen!
Everybody says, legalize it and tax it. Guess what, society goes from one extreme to another. The government gets addicted to drug taxes, companies want control over employees, government wants more control over the population, and all these unionized drug cops and prison guards want to stay employed.
In no time at all, drug addiction will be declared mandatory! Non-addiction will become a crime, and the war on drugs cops become employed to hunt down non-users, the guards to keep them locked up in prison, and the councilors to help people become addicts. Government gets more drug revenue, and civil liberties take a hit when government uses drugs for mind control of the population, business has control of the work force by using the threat of withholding the soma.
We are Doomed! DOOOOOMMED I say!
They will have to do something else in order to support their habbit. Probably burglary. They might still be selling drugs too then, just legally.But all the people who deal to support their habit will stop.
You are making the wrong assumption that drugs will be free then. They wont be. They will get a little cheaper, but a lot will be offset by taxes and fees and whatnot, once it gets legalized. To give an example: Marijuana is cheaper here than cigarettes now. The high cigarette prices have caused smuggling to go up and up.All the junkies who commit crimes - really stupid crimes like breaking a $300 window to steal a $20 item - will have less incentive.
Again, the same type of criminals are doing the smuggling...
So, I dont think that it will affect things that much.
Will not make a big difference if you ask me. Criminals rarely commit burglaries in their own neighbourhood.Plus, all the dealers and junkies who now want nothing to do with cops will call in to talk about robberies and fraud. Because if it's legal to have the stuff that was stolen, well then it's just a normal robbery.
Uhm, what is the difference to drug dealing and smuggling here? I think the all need about the same skills.Prostitution and fraud and hacking and bulk piracy and auto theft are niches; criminals who operate in them spend years honing their skills.
That is something where I could agree with. Dont criminalize the users, only the dealers and the guys higher up the hirarchy. Of course it becomes harder to find dealers among the users then.The Drug War gives us a huge group of people who don't trust cops, because they are currently criminals - and who would NOT be criminals under a sane drug policy.
This is an unproven theory. I dont really think so. Most people compare a heroin users full buzz to someone who is completely drunk. Problem is: Most people that drink alcohol do NOT get completely drunk every time they drink alcohol. They only drink a glass of beer, or wine, not enough to get drunk, not even close to get above the legal limit for driving.When drugs and alcohol were both legal and cheap, what was it the prohibitionists targeted?
Was it cocaine? Opium? Pot?
No... it was booze.
Trust that the people who lived with it all easy to get had a clue and could see the relative damage each was doing. Legalizing drugs would cause less damage than Alcohol does.
IMHO comparing the two is very dangerous.
Someone who had a shot of heroin cant do anything, but sleep. Someone who had a glass of beer (even 2, or 3) can still go and write comples C++ code.
Well thats just paranoia. Nicotine and alcohol have been legal for ages and nobody forces a beer down your throat (they may try to con you into it by telling you it will get you laid, but thats about it).choff wrote:Anybody else watch THX1138, or read Brave New World? You have all these people employed to arrest druggies and guard them in prisons, and all these rehab centers and addiction councilors, and if you legalize drugs, they all become unemployed, ain't gonna happen!
Everybody says, legalize it and tax it. Guess what, society goes from one extreme to another. The government gets addicted to drug taxes, companies want control over employees, government wants more control over the population, and all these unionized drug cops and prison guards want to stay employed.
In no time at all, drug addiction will be declared mandatory! Non-addiction will become a crime, and the war on drugs cops become employed to hunt down non-users, the guards to keep them locked up in prison, and the councilors to help people become addicts. Government gets more drug revenue, and civil liberties take a hit when government uses drugs for mind control of the population, business has control of the work force by using the threat of withholding the soma.
Actually, one's a good book and the others a good movie. But if I was in the government, and wanted to use drugs to control the population, wouldn't it make sense to pass laws to prohibit the drugs and punish the users. That way they don't have to force you to take them, you do it from your own "free will."IntLibber wrote:Well thats just paranoia. Nicotine and alcohol have been legal for ages and nobody forces a beer down your throat (they may try to con you into it by telling you it will get you laid, but thats about it).choff wrote:Anybody else watch THX1138, or read Brave New World? You have all these people employed to arrest druggies and guard them in prisons, and all these rehab centers and addiction councilors, and if you legalize drugs, they all become unemployed, ain't gonna happen!
Everybody says, legalize it and tax it. Guess what, society goes from one extreme to another. The government gets addicted to drug taxes, companies want control over employees, government wants more control over the population, and all these unionized drug cops and prison guards want to stay employed.
In no time at all, drug addiction will be declared mandatory! Non-addiction will become a crime, and the war on drugs cops become employed to hunt down non-users, the guards to keep them locked up in prison, and the councilors to help people become addicts. Government gets more drug revenue, and civil liberties take a hit when government uses drugs for mind control of the population, business has control of the work force by using the threat of withholding the soma.
CHoff
Do you have ANY clue about the demographics of drug use ANYWHERE?Skipjack wrote:They will have to do something else in order to support their habbit. Probably burglary. They might still be selling drugs too then, just legally.But all the people who deal to support their habit will stop.
The vast majority of casual drug users are gainfully employed. The typical casual dealer buys more than they typically need, and shares it out to friends.
The crack-house paradigm of the inner cities is NOT the typical situation.
http://www.oas.samhsa.gov/NSDUH/2k6nsdu ... m#Tab1.23A
Have fun. The percentage of drug users who are unemployed is 5%. LOWER than the national unemployment rate for the same period.
Wandering Kernel of Happiness
Which is easier? Panhandling a couple of dollars a month or robbing to get the same amount?They will have to do something else in order to support their habbit
I swear. Just the mention of drugs makes some people terminally stupid. People who are otherwise quite smart about economics.
I expect it is because people need their devils. Their two minutes of hate. Their Emmanuel Goldsteins.
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Let us take pot as an example. If it was legal the cost might be about $10 a pound retail (very high grade tomatoes). About 65 cents an ounce. An extremely heavy smoker (out at the two or three sigma level) might smoke an ounce a week. That is about $2.50 a month.
And people are going to take up crime for $2.50 a month? Now consider your more average (still heavy) smoker. About an ounce a month. Under a dollar. Not including taxes. The numbers who will take up crime for that kind of money is not significant. Down in the noise level.
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Really Skipjack,
Your analysis has nothing to do with , economics, agriculture, logic, or investigation.
It is totally faith based. Rather interesting for a board dedicated to science and logic (outside General).
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.
In actuality though pot is no harder to grow than wheat.
What does a half kilo loaf of bread cost? About $2 to $4 depending on quality and some other things. That is a years supply of pot for most smokers.
For the price of one to three loaves of bread people are going to embark on a life of crime?
Let us say heroin or cocaine came in at 10X that (yearly cost) because of the processing involved and the lower volumes. That would be $120 a year for a very heavy user. About 30 cents a day.
What exactly is the crime potential of a 30 cent a day habit? OK suppose I'm off 10X what is the crime potential of a $3 a day habit?
They are vegetables Skipjack.
What does a half kilo loaf of bread cost? About $2 to $4 depending on quality and some other things. That is a years supply of pot for most smokers.
For the price of one to three loaves of bread people are going to embark on a life of crime?
Let us say heroin or cocaine came in at 10X that (yearly cost) because of the processing involved and the lower volumes. That would be $120 a year for a very heavy user. About 30 cents a day.
What exactly is the crime potential of a 30 cent a day habit? OK suppose I'm off 10X what is the crime potential of a $3 a day habit?
They are vegetables Skipjack.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.
You and Msimon are always talking about "the drugs" in general, yet then you are ALWAYS bringing marijuana and marijuana users as examples. These are not representative for all illegal drugs!Do you have ANY clue about the demographics of drug use ANYWHERE?
The vast majority of casual drug users are gainfully employed. The typical casual dealer buys more than they typically need, and shares it out to friends.
Also, I am VERY much aware of the demographics of drug users, thanks.
Again, fallacy! You are bringing pot as an example, yet you are talking about "the drugs".What exactly is the crime potential of a 30 cent a day habit? OK suppose I'm off 10X what is the crime potential of a $3 a day habit?
Again, it does not work that way!
Apparently so aware you didn't even bother with the link.Skipjack wrote:You and Msimon are always talking about "the drugs" in general, yet then you are ALWAYS bringing marijuana and marijuana users as examples. These are not representative for all illegal drugs!Do you have ANY clue about the demographics of drug use ANYWHERE?
The vast majority of casual drug users are gainfully employed. The typical casual dealer buys more than they typically need, and shares it out to friends.
Also, I am VERY much aware of the demographics of drug users, thanks.
The link showed, very clearly, ALL drug users. All drugs, not just pot.
You live in some deranged fantasy land.
Wandering Kernel of Happiness
The link is bogus!The link showed, very clearly, ALL drug users. All drugs, not just pot.
You cant tell me that someone who is drunk can work even half as efficiently as someone who is sober. Since most drugs have at least the same effect on someones cognitive abilities (with some exceptions), this is totally unbelieveable.
Drug Testing Lowers High Tech ProductivityWizWom wrote:Do you have ANY clue about the demographics of drug use ANYWHERE?Skipjack wrote:They will have to do something else in order to support their habbit. Probably burglary. They might still be selling drugs too then, just legally.But all the people who deal to support their habit will stop.
The vast majority of casual drug users are gainfully employed. The typical casual dealer buys more than they typically need, and shares it out to friends.
The crack-house paradigm of the inner cities is NOT the typical situation.
http://www.oas.samhsa.gov/NSDUH/2k6nsdu ... m#Tab1.23A
Have fun. The percentage of drug users who are unemployed is 5%. LOWER than the national unemployment rate for the same period.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.
Ah. I see your problem. You think being "stoned" has the same effect as being drunk.Skipjack wrote:The link is bogus!The link showed, very clearly, ALL drug users. All drugs, not just pot.
You cant tell me that someone who is drunk can work even half as efficiently as someone who is sober. Since most drugs have at least the same effect on someones cognitive abilities (with some exceptions), this is totally unbelieveable.
As usual your are making stuff up. You have no information on the subject besides fears implanted in you. Where did you learn your "facts"? Certainly not the scientific literature.
So I think it is a good time to repost (that was quick) my link on drugs and high tech productivity.
Drug Testing Lowers High Tech Productivity
Now what I find interesting is why you are so incurious about the subject. What I also find interesting is that when presented with researched facts you deny them.
Faith is a wonderful thing. It can make people dumber than rocks. When facts come up against their faith.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.
If that is so why don't you give us some links to the literature? So far you are very short on researched facts.Also, I am VERY much aware of the demographics of drug users, thanks.
In response to your beliefs several of us have presented research that contradicts those beliefs. I can't recall even one link you have presented.
Let me just add that despite the vast propaganda campaign of our government those of us in favor of legalization are slowly inching the numbers in our favor. Right now in the US the percentages in favor of legalizing pot are in the high 40s and for all drugs in the low 40s. And we are gaining a percent or two every year.
A retired police detective friend of mine thinks that total legalization will come to America in 5 years or less.
http://www.citizensopposingprohibition.org/
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.
A link from the U.S. Government is bogus? You have really odd ideas, skippy.Skipjack wrote:The link is bogus!The link showed, very clearly, ALL drug users. All drugs, not just pot.
You cant tell me that someone who is drunk can work even half as efficiently as someone who is sober. Since most drugs have at least the same effect on someones cognitive abilities (with some exceptions), this is totally unbelieveable.
Wandering Kernel of Happiness
In fact Skipjack, your argumentation style is one of the very best things the legalizers have going for them. Keep up the good work. You rant we present facts.
Keep up the good work.
Every specious argument you present gains us converts.
Keep up the good work.
Every specious argument you present gains us converts.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.