So the question is - can we evolve back to a Republic?Diogenes wrote:AcesHigh wrote:well, imho, I dont frick care about how people are treated in their societies as long as they leave MY society alone. If they want to mistreat women, thats their problem. Just dont try to mistreat women in my society.JLawson wrote:Well, kcdodd - that's one thing that's always puzzled me about the left. They're very much supportive of the most repressive societies, with no condemnation of the misogyny or violent homophobia inherent in them. When there were videos smuggled out of Afghanistan of the Taliban killing women who dared show any skin at all, the feminist response here in the US was pretty much nonexistant.
its just dumb to try to export democracy. If one day they decide to change, they will do it by themselves. Latin American countries didnt need the US liberating them from the right wing dictatorships.
I would add a corollary to that. Democracy is dumb period. It has never worked in the entire history of mankind, and it will never work due to characteristics of human nature. Our Founders HATED democracy, and that is why they created this nation as a REPUBLIC. It is the subsequent foolish descendants that have slowly evolved our Republic into a democracy, and therein lies the seeds of our destruction.
Where I spent Sunday Afternoon
When opinion and reality conflict - guess which one is going to win in the long run.
I am constantly stunned at the mental gymnastics the conservatives are able to do. Almost every post makes my head feel as though it is about to explode from the discrepancies between reality and the world you have created. What you have claimed to be a liberal view is the very antithesis of being liberal.JLawson wrote:Well, kcdodd - that's one thing that's always puzzled me about the left. They're very much supportive of the most repressive societies, with no condemnation of the misogyny or violent homophobia inherent in them. When there were videos smuggled out of Afghanistan of the Taliban killing women who dared show any skin at all, the feminist response here in the US was pretty much nonexistant.
It's wierd. Almost seems like the bad guys are the heros, while the folks attempting to stop them are to be fought tooth and nail.
What you want is a religious war. You want Christians to be in charge of the world. You want to be able to tell non-christians what to do. When they don't do it you say it is they who have gotten in your face. When liberals try to tell you to leave THEM (Muslim Americans) alone, you label liberals as siding with Muslim Terrorists, and Muslim dictators. The Christian bible is filled with just as much death, mysogony, and hatred as the quran. I don't defend Islam, just as I don't defend Christianity. I think both are equally destructive to the mind and society. I am an atheist. What I defend is people being able to choose their faith without the control you so heartily wish to impose on everyone.
I think Diogenes view is the most destructive of all: "choose which religion to be oppressed by". Of course his answer is "choose mine". I don't think anyone can argue that most people are not religious. Most people are ignorant too, but that doesn't mean you should be ignorant. And it doesn't mean you should build your society by having to side with one particular group of ignoramuses.
Carter
Carter,kcdodd wrote:I am constantly stunned at the mental gymnastics the conservatives are able to do. Almost every post makes my head feel as though it is about to explode from the discrepancies between reality and the world you have created. What you have claimed to be a liberal view is the very antithesis of being liberal.JLawson wrote:Well, kcdodd - that's one thing that's always puzzled me about the left. They're very much supportive of the most repressive societies, with no condemnation of the misogyny or violent homophobia inherent in them. When there were videos smuggled out of Afghanistan of the Taliban killing women who dared show any skin at all, the feminist response here in the US was pretty much nonexistant.
It's wierd. Almost seems like the bad guys are the heros, while the folks attempting to stop them are to be fought tooth and nail.
What you want is a religious war. You want Christians to be in charge of the world. You want to be able to tell non-christians what to do. When they don't do it you say it is they who have gotten in your face. When liberals try to tell you to leave THEM (Muslim Americans) alone, you label liberals as siding with Muslim Terrorists, and Muslim dictators. The Christian bible is filled with just as much death, mysogony, and hatred as the quran. I don't defend Islam, just as I don't defend Christianity. I think both are equally destructive to the mind and society. I am an atheist. What I defend is people being able to choose their faith without the control you so heartily wish to impose on everyone.
I think Diogenes view is the most destructive of all: "choose which religion to be oppressed by". Of course his answer is "choose mine". I don't think anyone can argue that most people are not religious. Most people are ignorant too, but that doesn't mean you should be ignorant. And it doesn't mean you should build your society by having to side with one particular group of ignoramuses.
You obviously haven't been paying attention. Conservatives don't want a religious war. Most of us know we already have one. Guess what, by you're own admission you're on the front lines. Haven't you paid any attention to what Islam says about gays and kafir. If they win you're a walking dead man, set for stoning if not something more nasty. 9/11 demonstrated that there are no such things as civilians as far as the enemy is concerned and no rules either. the Jihad has proven to be an equal opportunity killer, committing atrocities against Jews, Christians, buddhists, and oh yes, nice little muslim school girls. The only peace that the jihadists offer is submission to their monsterous way of life, which for you is a death sentence. The choice isn't between two sets of idiots. it's between liberty, eternal servitude, or the grave.
The penalty for homosexual acts is death to both parties.
All I can hope is that Christians don't actually start following the bible very closely.If anyone, whether man or woman, in any village throughout you land violates your covenant with God by worshipping other gods, the sun, moon, or stars...then that man or woman shall be taken outside the city and shall be stoned to death.
How about we talk about this country, where religious based executions are illegal. And how about we talk about our constitution which guarantees religious freedom. And so, how about we talk about Muslims who have chosen to live here, and not in the middle east.
Carter
I don't think you get the point, kcdodd -kcdodd wrote:I am constantly stunned at the mental gymnastics the conservatives are able to do. Almost every post makes my head feel as though it is about to explode from the discrepancies between reality and the world you have created. What you have claimed to be a liberal view is the very antithesis of being liberal.JLawson wrote:Well, kcdodd - that's one thing that's always puzzled me about the left. They're very much supportive of the most repressive societies, with no condemnation of the misogyny or violent homophobia inherent in them. When there were videos smuggled out of Afghanistan of the Taliban killing women who dared show any skin at all, the feminist response here in the US was pretty much nonexistant.
It's wierd. Almost seems like the bad guys are the heros, while the folks attempting to stop them are to be fought tooth and nail.
What you want is a religious war. You want Christians to be in charge of the world. You want to be able to tell non-christians what to do. When they don't do it you say it is they who have gotten in your face. When liberals try to tell you to leave THEM (Muslim Americans) alone, you label liberals as siding with Muslim Terrorists, and Muslim dictators. The Christian bible is filled with just as much death, mysogony, and hatred as the quran. I don't defend Islam, just as I don't defend Christianity. I think both are equally destructive to the mind and society. I am an atheist. What I defend is people being able to choose their faith without the control you so heartily wish to impose on everyone.
I think Diogenes view is the most destructive of all: "choose which religion to be oppressed by". Of course his answer is "choose mine". I don't think anyone can argue that most people are not religious. Most people are ignorant too, but that doesn't mean you should be ignorant. And it doesn't mean you should build your society by having to side with one particular group of ignoramuses.
Christianity gives you the opportunity to opt out. Want to be an atheist? Fine - it means you won't get into heaven, which you don't believe in anyway. Want to be an agnostic? Go right ahead. Want to worship FSM's noodlely appendages? Knock yourself out. Wiccan? The ignorant might frown at you - but you aren't going to be burned at the stake.
Islam - you DON'T have the option of ignoring it when the militants get the upper hand. You WILL convert, or you WILL pay jizya, or you WILL die. Those are your choices, take them or leave them. (And don't be so sure about being able to duck out by paying jizya, the Islamic head tax which basically says you accept the authority of Islam, and all the rules and prohibitions thereof.)
Yes, the Bible is violent, misogynistic, full of unpleasant stuff. It's the basis for a lot of our legal system, however. And pay attention to the New Testament - (Good lord, I'M actually giving lectures on the Bible. Never thought that would happen.) - that's where it all changes. We've grown out of the violence and oppression.
Yes, historically, there's been a hell of a lot hate and discontent performed in the name of Christianity - and so what? YOU never made mistakes you learned from? Think a religion isn't able to learn and grow, to adapt with changing times?
Think outside your box, kcdodd. You see your choices as being oppressed by Christians, or oppressed by Muslims. You want to live with being ignored, or the occasional frown in your direction, or would you rather have your head hacked off? NOBODY profits from a religious war, except the coffin-makers."What you want is a religious war. You want Christians to be in charge of the world."
But we're IN a religious war NOW, like it or not. And believe me, I DON'T like it. After 9/11, I expected it would take the better part of two decades to even begin to sort out the religious aspects of it all - and likely 50 years before acommodation would be reached inside Islam itself reconciling the various sects - and that's WITH a centralized authoritative structure that Islam simply does not have.
Any eloquent asshole can start preaching his own interpretations of the Koran, and build his own following of rabid head-hackers - there's no authority to tell a mullah "No, what you're saying isn't valid." and strip him of his congregation. As long as he has followers, he's valid. (This does lead to conflicting fatwas, but that's as may be.) It's a decentralized religion. So now I'm thinking more like a century until everyone's all on the same page (thanks to the internet) - and all during that time we're going to be having 'martyrs' who have been riled up by mullahs doing destructive acts.
Nuclear devices can be made pretty small. I don't even want to think what'll happen when one is detonated in a major city. The backlash is going to be terrible, but that's a side issue. Maybe that's what it'll take to get you to realize that one of these things is not like the other.
My point is that Militant Islam HATES all other religions (and they see a fair number of sects inside Islam that need to die also...) and you seem to think that by declaring yourself an atheist you'll be EXEMPT?
What we want is what YOU say you want.
I'm starting to think you don't listen. You want control? Try Afghanistan under the Taliban. THAT is 'control'. Christianity in the West? Easter. Christmas. Thanksgiving. You call that control? I can see the difference there - can you?What I defend is people being able to choose their faith without the control you so heartily wish to impose on everyone.
Ain't half the contortions you're going through to justify your hate. Face it, your idea of 'reality' doesn't exactly find congruence with the real world. Reality doesn't give a darn about your ideas, or ideals, or thoughts or hopes or dreams or wishes.I am constantly stunned at the mental gymnastics the conservatives are able to do.
You want freedom of religion? That works for me, too. You want freedom FROM religion? To never be bothered with the mention of religion again? You won't find that in reality.
Quite a few I know moved here to GET away from the radicals. How about we talk about the shari'a courts in Quebec? Just for Muslims, of course... for now. But I wouldn't have thought it possible a decade back..."How about we talk about this country, where religious based executions are illegal. And how about we talk about our constitution which guarantees religious freedom. And so, how about we talk about Muslims who have chosen to live here, and not in the middle east."
When opinion and reality conflict - guess which one is going to win in the long run.
No, christianity does not. Our secularised version of christianity has done that.Christianity gives you the opportunity to opt out. Want to be an atheist? Fine - it means you won't get into heaven, which you don't believe in anyway. Want to be an agnostic? Go right ahead. Want to worship FSM's noodlely appendages? Knock yourself out. Wiccan? The ignorant might frown at you - but you aren't going to be burned at the stake.
Islam is no different from christianity by itself. The difference is the people. You want islam to have a different status in american because that makes it easy for you to know who to kill. How about we kill those who try to kill us, instead of just kill everyone that doesn't have the same faith as you. I am sorry it is hard for you to think in non-absolutist terms.Islam - you DON'T have the option of ignoring it when the militants get the upper hand. You WILL convert, or you WILL pay jizya, or you WILL die. Those are your choices, take them or leave them. (And don't be so sure about being able to duck out by paying jizya, the Islamic head tax which basically says you accept the authority of Islam, and all the rules and prohibitions thereof.)
The new testament says follow the laws in the old testament.And pay attention to the New Testament
For the most part.We've grown out of the violence and oppression.
Double standard. You just said islam is no-win. Christianity is really the same, but we're "different".Think a religion isn't able to learn and grow, to adapt with changing times?
No. Why are you still equating all islam to militant islam. You defend your christianity from militant christianity, right? What makes you special?My point is that Militant Islam HATES all other religions (and they see a fair number of sects inside Islam that need to die also...) and you seem to think that by declaring yourself an atheist you'll be EXEMPT?
Did you read the first post in this thread? The whole point is to stop Muslims from building their mosque because they are Muslim, and it offends the Christians.I'm starting to think you don't listen. You want control?
Carter
Actually no. What we want is to recognize that there is a religious war that has been ongoing since About 632 AD and with the US since about 1776 (or was it '78?).What you want is a religious war.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Barbary_War
In March 1785, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams went to negotiate with Tripoli's envoy to London, Ambassador Sidi Haji Abdrahaman (or Sidi Haji Abdul Rahman Adja). Upon inquiring "concerning the ground of the pretensions to make war upon nations who had done them no injury", the ambassador replied:It was written in their Koran, that all nations which had not acknowledged the Prophet were sinners, whom it was the right and duty of the faithful to plunder and enslave; and that every muslim who was slain in this warfare was sure to go to paradise. He said, also, that the man who was the first to board a vessel had one slave over and above his share, and that when they sprang to the deck of an enemy's ship, every sailor held a dagger in each hand and a third in his mouth; which usually struck such terror into the foe that they cried out for quarter at once.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.
Not good enough for you?kcdodd wrote: No, christianity does not. Our secularised version of christianity has done that.
Islam is no different from christianity by itself. The difference is the people. You want islam to have a different status in american because that makes it easy for you to know who to kill. How about we kill those who try to kill us, instead of just kill everyone that doesn't have the same faith as you. I am sorry it is hard for you to think in non-absolutist terms.
Seems to me like it's you that's having problems thinking outside the box. You're correct that a religion is made up of people. People are involved with the writing, with the interpretations, with the day-to-day instructions and interactions.
As I've said before, I've got no problem with Islam - it's the militant factions that want to see me either Muslim - preferably their flavor of the week - or dead that I find quite objectionable.
If you can't (or won't) see the difference between Islam, and Militant Islam, then I don't see much point in trying to argue with you on it.
As I tried to point out, Islam IS no-win. Christianity has at least a notional top-down structure, which provides guidance and reform. Islam is more open-source, with mullahs interpreting their scriptures as THEY see fit.Double standard. You just said islam is no-win. Christianity is really the same, but we're "different".
Do you ever bother to actually read what you're replying to? I AM emphasizing the difference between Islam and Militant Islam, because I do see the difference. You, however, don't seem able ( or want) to comprehend the difference between militant Islam and Christianity in general...Why are you still equating all islam to militant islam. You defend your christianity from militant christianity, right? What makes you special?
Would you have considered a WW2 Victory Monument built in Hiroshima to be offensive to the Japanese? How about a Shinto shrine over the USS Arizona memorial? Would the local populations have any sort of right to complain about such?Did you read the first post in this thread? The whole point is to stop Muslims from building their mosque because they are Muslim, and it offends the Christians.
What we have to deal with is current, present-day reality, and what we have as a world situation NOW. Not Islam as it was in 1529, not Christianity as it was in the time of the Crusades or the Inquisition. There've been significant changes in Christianity since then. In Islam? Not so much.
If I were to look over your life (as I look over mine) I have no doubt that there are or would be points in it which would be reprehensible, where our actions are less than honorable or decent, where we've hurt others badly either intentionally or inadvertently. But we are the sum of all our experiences, both good and bad - and the notionally decent person tries to be better than the person they were in the past. Should I judge you and condemn you by your mistakes in the past? Have you learned from them, become determined not to repeat them inthe future? Should I punish myself continually for things in my past I'm not proud of? Or should I try to be a better person tomorrow to make up for the mistakes of my past?
The same process - although much, much slower - applies to religions. It takes a long time for religious doctrine to change, and it can be terribly destructive and painful in the process.
Remembering the errors of the past is all well and good - if we learn from them. Using them to justify future excesses is a fool's game.
When opinion and reality conflict - guess which one is going to win in the long run.
I am no fan of the turks, really. But, while I can see Iran doing all sorts of crazy stuff, the Turks are not that crazy... yet. They are not suicidal. Their relations with Israel sure took a hit and Israel might not be able to count on them anymore as an allie, but war... That takes a whole new kind of stupid and I know these people. They have seen some islamization in the country, but the majority of people there are not suicidal fools. Plus, thanks to their constitution, the military emmediately takes over, should the islamists in the government go crazy.Msimon wrote:Not to worry. Iran and Turkey will be going to war with Israel soon.
Oh, I do agree on the fact that the left are too islam friendly. A point that I have critizised often, also about the people in my country...
JLawson wrote:So the question is - can we evolve back to a Republic?Diogenes wrote:AcesHigh wrote: well, imho, I dont frick care about how people are treated in their societies as long as they leave MY society alone. If they want to mistreat women, thats their problem. Just dont try to mistreat women in my society.
its just dumb to try to export democracy. If one day they decide to change, they will do it by themselves. Latin American countries didnt need the US liberating them from the right wing dictatorships.
I would add a corollary to that. Democracy is dumb period. It has never worked in the entire history of mankind, and it will never work due to characteristics of human nature. Our Founders HATED democracy, and that is why they created this nation as a REPUBLIC. It is the subsequent foolish descendants that have slowly evolved our Republic into a democracy, and therein lies the seeds of our destruction.
I very much doubt it. At least not without a serious upheaval.
kcdodd wrote:I am constantly stunned at the mental gymnastics the conservatives are able to do. Almost every post makes my head feel as though it is about to explode from the discrepancies between reality and the world you have created. What you have claimed to be a liberal view is the very antithesis of being liberal.JLawson wrote:Well, kcdodd - that's one thing that's always puzzled me about the left. They're very much supportive of the most repressive societies, with no condemnation of the misogyny or violent homophobia inherent in them. When there were videos smuggled out of Afghanistan of the Taliban killing women who dared show any skin at all, the feminist response here in the US was pretty much nonexistant.
It's wierd. Almost seems like the bad guys are the heros, while the folks attempting to stop them are to be fought tooth and nail.
What you want is a religious war. You want Christians to be in charge of the world. You want to be able to tell non-christians what to do. When they don't do it you say it is they who have gotten in your face. When liberals try to tell you to leave THEM (Muslim Americans) alone, you label liberals as siding with Muslim Terrorists, and Muslim dictators. The Christian bible is filled with just as much death, mysogony, and hatred as the quran. I don't defend Islam, just as I don't defend Christianity. I think both are equally destructive to the mind and society. I am an atheist. What I defend is people being able to choose their faith without the control you so heartily wish to impose on everyone..
Are you completely unaware of the issues and conflicts surrounding Israel?
kcdodd wrote: I think Diogenes view is the most destructive of all: "choose which religion to be oppressed by". Of course his answer is "choose mine". I don't think anyone can argue that most people are not religious. Most people are ignorant too, but that doesn't mean you should be ignorant. And it doesn't mean you should build your society by having to side with one particular group of ignoramuses.
I don't think you are getting the gist of what I am saying. I am saying this is what I see in the future, and I don't see any way out of it. You may not follow this, but having other people on the planet does indeed mean you are going to have to side with a particular group of ignoramuses.
Do you see a different future? Please explain.
JLawson wrote: Quite a few I know moved here to GET away from the radicals. How about we talk about the shari'a courts in Quebec? Just for Muslims, of course... for now. But I wouldn't have thought it possible a decade back...
There was a time in history where the Rabid Christianists were just as deadly of a threat to non-believers and insufficiently pious believers. Islam appears to be in that phase where the extremists among them keep everyone running scared of being fingered as insufficiently pious, and the only way to assuage the charge is to be fiercely Religious.
Christianity moved past this period in it's history, we can only hope that Islam will as well.
Here is an example of that "cognitive dissonance" to which we are referring.
These people have got to be out of their Fricken mind.
Zombietime does a great service in photographing and reporting on various liberal groups in San Francisco.
There are more at the link.
http://www.zombietime.com/sf_rally_sept ... palestine/
These people have got to be out of their Fricken mind.
Zombietime does a great service in photographing and reporting on various liberal groups in San Francisco.
There are more at the link.
http://www.zombietime.com/sf_rally_sept ... palestine/
MSimon wrote:Actually no. What we want is to recognize that there is a religious war that has been ongoing since About 632 AD and with the US since about 1776 (or was it '78?).What you want is a religious war.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Barbary_War
In March 1785, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams went to negotiate with Tripoli's envoy to London, Ambassador Sidi Haji Abdrahaman (or Sidi Haji Abdul Rahman Adja). Upon inquiring "concerning the ground of the pretensions to make war upon nations who had done them no injury", the ambassador replied:It was written in their Koran, that all nations which had not acknowledged the Prophet were sinners, whom it was the right and duty of the faithful to plunder and enslave; and that every muslim who was slain in this warfare was sure to go to paradise. He said, also, that the man who was the first to board a vessel had one slave over and above his share, and that when they sprang to the deck of an enemy's ship, every sailor held a dagger in each hand and a third in his mouth; which usually struck such terror into the foe that they cried out for quarter at once.
Did I already cover the outhouse door thing?
http://www.nowpublic.com/world/was-symb ... cans-anger
Plus, thanks to their constitution, the military emmediately takes over, should the islamists in the government go crazy.
I have read reports that the Islamists have already co-opted the Turk military. If I see it again I'll post a link.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.