Another example of Rep idiocy

[Skipjack]

Years ago, the US government funded research in Tuskegee Alabama. This is what happens when religion DOESN'T interfere with science.

Yeah, you know for every example that you bring, where crimes were commited in the name of science, I can bring you a thousand that were commited in the name of a religion/ideology.

Not only that, it drove away a lot of valuable talent. The US wouldn't have even tried to make the atomic bomb without the intervention of refugee Scientists.

Of course it did. A lot of scientists that stayed were not to happy with the Nazis and their discrediting of certain scientists and their work.
It is also worth noting that the US did, rightfully so, put ideological issues aside when it came to bringing German scientists over to the US after the war. Some of those did help the US with completing the nuclear bomb as well. I know of a personal account of a relative of mine, who was brought over to help with the complex math involved.

Had they been following the religious teachings that they grew up with, a lot of ugly stuff might not have happened. Hitler and his associates became obsessed with a pseudo-occult German Mythology sort of quasi religiousness, and it led him to grief.

But National Socialism was a religion. Dont you see that? It followed the same rules all other religions follow.
No, it is scepticism and science that prevent people from falling for schemes like that.
Also, Hitler was obsessed with a lot of things, he was insane after all. Though not quite as stupid as US movies make him be.

[Skipjack]

A few more things: The christians in Germany and Austria were mostly very much in line with the National Socialists. I know of pastors that were followers of the Nazis. Hitler knew very well how to play them. The whole "the jews killed our Jesus" idea, e.g. worked very well when it came to get the christians in line against the jews.
He also made deal with the catholic and the protestant churches. They gave him their land and some of their riches and in return they were allowed to ask church tax. After WW2 they asked back the land that Hitler "took from them", but kept the tax
Anyway, to proof my point: Do you know what was written on the belt buckle of the Wehrmacht? "Gott mit uns", "God with us".

[Diogenes]

Years ago, the US government funded research in Tuskegee Alabama. This is what happens when religion DOESN'T interfere with science.

Yeah, you know for every example that you bring, where crimes were commited in the name of science, I can bring you a thousand that were commited in the name of a religion/ideology.

Quantity is one thing, scale is another. Stalin once enacted a policy of starvation that killed 20+ million people. Though his number of events may be low, his body count is high.

Likewise, you are probably overlooking the notion that atrocities committed in the name of religion are no more valid than the "Indians" at the Boston Tea Party. Merely conventional human skulduggery disguised as piety.

Not only that, it drove away a lot of valuable talent. The US wouldn't have even tried to make the atomic bomb without the intervention of refugee Scientists.

Of course it did. A lot of scientists that stayed were not to happy with the Nazis and their discrediting of certain scientists and their work.
It is also worth noting that the US did, rightfully so, put ideological issues aside when it came to bringing German scientists over to the US after the war. Some of those did help the US with completing the nuclear bomb as well. I know of a personal account of a relative of mine, who was brought over to help with the complex math involved.

I recall having read in an article about Wernher Von Braun that he once got into serious trouble after he and his colleagues were celebrating the successful launch of a rocket. Wernher supposedly made the remark that the experiment wasn't a complete success. The rocket landed on the wrong planet! Wernher was joking, but the Nazi loyalty officer regarded it as seditious, and Wernher very nearly came to grief over that remark.

There is also possible circumstantial indications that Heisenberg intentionally slowed up German nuclear research. Heisneberg's comments to Niels Bohr could be read that way, and references to experiments that were both relatively easy and not really necessary taking longer than they should.


Not everyone was an ideologue.

Had they been following the religious teachings that they grew up with, a lot of ugly stuff might not have happened. Hitler and his associates became obsessed with a pseudo-occult German Mythology sort of quasi religiousness, and it led him to grief.

But National Socialism was a religion. Dont you see that? It followed the same rules all other religions follow.
No, it is scepticism and science that prevent people from falling for schemes like that.
Also, Hitler was obsessed with a lot of things, he was insane after all. Though not quite as stupid as US movies make him be.

I don't recall a US movie that made him out to be stupid. Most of them portray him as a terrifying threat.

No, I don't see National Socialism as a religion. While it may engender a religious like devotion, it does not resemble a religion in the terms that most people understand religion. i. e. dealing with the afterlife, spirituality, and supernatural events.

[Diogenes]

A few more things: The christians in Germany and Austria were mostly very much in line with the National Socialists. I know of pastors that were followers of the Nazis. Hitler knew very well how to play them. The whole "the jews killed our Jesus" idea, e.g. worked very well when it came to get the christians in line against the jews.

An argument I've never understood. I was always taught that it was the Romans (who were real bad-asses in those days) that did all the killing. Some people can't seem to even get THAT part of history right.

He also made deal with the catholic and the protestant churches. They gave him their land and some of their riches and in return they were allowed to ask church tax. After WW2 they asked back the land that Hitler "took from them", but kept the tax

Where is Martin Luther when you need him? Obviously there is something wrong with this picture. It certainly doesn't seem to be consistent with the Teachings of their religion.

Anyway, to proof my point: Do you know what was written on the belt buckle of the Wehrmacht? "Gott mit uns", "God with us".

Yeah, and Constantine proclaimed "In this sign Conquer", and had it painted on all his shields.

As Abraham Lincoln said, "Just because you call a tail a leg, doesn't make it so."

[Skipjack]

I recall having read in an article about Wernher Von Braun that he once got into serious trouble after he and his colleagues were celebrating the successful launch of a rocket. Wernher supposedly made the remark that the experiment wasn't a complete success. The rocket landed on the wrong planet! Wernher was joking, but the Nazi loyalty officer regarded it as seditious, and Wernher very nearly came to grief over that remark.

It may be possible and it does sound a lot like von Braun, who always put his dream of space flight above everything else, especially social conventions and whatever was deemed appropriate behaviour ("so you are the dogman!"
The tales of supression in the Nazi regime are often exaggerated. Even some jewish people had a limited amount of freedom if they were somehow deemed valuable by the Nazi leadership.
The leader of the comedian harmonists comes to mind here (who they held a protecting hand over, for a long time). Also I know an account of a partially jewish SS general. He was later killed by the Russians since he did not want to leave his Cossack friends allone, when the Russians came to commit genocide on them (one of the few genocides that actually worked).

There is also possible circumstantial indications that Heisenberg intentionally slowed up German nuclear research. Heisneberg's comments to Niels Bohr could be read that way, and references to experiments that were both relatively easy and not really necessary taking longer than they should.

That is also quite possible. There were even members of the SS that refused to commit war crimes as they are often attributed to them. At least some even got away with it. Anyway, I am sure a lot of scientists with reason did passive resistance by stalling developments or missleading developments enough to make sure the Nazis would loose the war. A wise thing to do.
Anyway, the stories are all great, but they do only confirm what I say, if anything.

Stalin once enacted a policy of starvation that killed 20+ million people. Though his number of events may be low, his body count is high.

Yes, another 20 million that go on the list of murders in the name of a religion.
I heard that the Kulakh wars allone had 32million deaths. The true number may never be known.
Compared to Stalin, Hitler was little orphan Annie.

Likewise, you are probably overlooking the notion that atrocities committed in the name of religion are no more valid than the "Indians" at the Boston Tea Party.

That may or may not be true and the same goes for "in the name of science" as well.

I don't recall a US movie that made him out to be stupid. Most of them portray him as a terrifying threat.

Indiana Jones and the last crusade (Nazis burning books and Hitler signing journals, LOL).
Little Nicky ( Hitler gets raped with a Pineapple once a day).
Just to name two.
There are quite a few others that I can not remembe the English titles of.

[Skipjack]

Where is Martin Luther when you need him? Obviously there is something wrong with this picture. It certainly doesn't seem to be consistent with the Teachings of their religion.

Most Germans are protestants (Luthers faction). Hitler had a big programme to promote the "more German" protestantism in Austria, where the majority is catholic.
Funny how these things take turns...
Anyway, after the war protestants (of which there were quite a few before the war already in Austria) faced repercussions from the catholics all over Austria. Nothing to severe, but still not nice. Public humiliation at the lower end.

No, I don't see National Socialism as a religion. While it may engender a religious like devotion, it does not resemble a religion in the terms that most people understand religion. i. e. dealing with the afterlife, spirituality, and supernatural events.

But it is. It has all the ingredients of a religion. Btw, not all religions deal with an afterlife per se, or promise one.
Again, it has a believe system with "eternal truths".
These truths can not be doubted (with punishment and repercussions for those that do).
It promises salvation to the believers (the German people will be the chose people and they will have everything, heaven on earth, blah, blah, blah).
The members are told to go into the world and bring new members.
People that dont fit in, can get into trouble.

[Diogenes]

And for the amusement of everyone following this thread...


Drilling Agency Staffers Using Meth, Watching Porn

Staff members at an agency that oversees offshore drilling accepted tickets to sports events, lunches and other gifts from oil and gas companies and used government computers to view pornography, according to an Interior Department report alleging a culture of cronyism between regulators and the industry.

In at least one case, an inspector for the Minerals Management Service admitted using crystal methamphetamine and said he might have been under the influence of the drug the next day at work, according to the report by the acting inspector general of the Interior Department.

http://jammiewearingfool.blogspot.com/2 ... html#links

[Diogenes]

Stalin once enacted a policy of starvation that killed 20+ million people. Though his number of events may be low, his body count is high.

Yes, another 20 million that go on the list of murders in the name of a religion.

If you call everything religion, then you can add things up that way, however few people see Stalin as motivated by religion.

I heard that the Kulakh wars allone had 32million deaths. The true number may never be known.
Compared to Stalin, Hitler was little orphan Annie.

Hitler didn't have as many National Socialist journalists as Stalin had Communist journalists. Likewise, The US Army didn't get to sift through Stalin's dead body pile. Also, some of the accouterments of the Nazis fit the more macabre presentation of evil. What is a red star compared to a death's head for inducing a shudder?

I don't recall a US movie that made him out to be stupid. Most of them portray him as a terrifying threat.

Indiana Jones and the last crusade (Nazis burning books and Hitler signing journals, LOL).
Little Nicky ( Hitler gets raped with a Pineapple once a day).
Just to name two.
There are quite a few others that I can not remembe the English titles of.

I Never saw little Nicky, and though I saw Indiana Jones and the last crusade, I hardly regarded it as a serious war movie, or even a serious movie of any kind. As far as I'm concerned, Indiana Jones jumped the shark on the second movie. I didn't even bother to watch the last one.

In most of the Movies I've seen regarding Hitler, he is portrayed as the personification of an evil and frightening man. Nothing funny about him.

[Skipjack]

I am not sure whether this is the same account, but I know of a case where this "porn viewing" was actually caused by a trojan. Otherwise the workers there would have spent 24/7 watching porn...

Also, what does this have to do with science????!!!!!

[Diogenes]

I am not sure whether this is the same account, but I know of a case where this "porn viewing" was actually caused by a trojan. Otherwise the workers threr would have spent 24/7 watching porn...

Also, what does this have to do with science????!!!!!

It has to do with the competency and efficiency of Government. You know, those people who are overseeing how the money is being spent?

[Skipjack]

In most of the Movies I've seen regarding Hitler, he is portrayed as the personification of an evil and frightening man. Nothing funny about him.

Yeah, usually he has a pact with the devil or some aliens, or something equally ridiculous that explains why the Germans almost won WW2...
Really, name one movie, that is not exaggerating the whole thing to the point of ridicule.
I find nothing funny about the topic.

It has to do with the competency and efficiency of Government. You know, those people who are overseeing how the money is being spent?

There are plenty of government programms that are just as inefficient and that are done by the Reps. Take their insistance on the Constellation programme for instance.

What is a red star compared to a death's head for inducing a shudder?

I am not 100% sure, but I am pretty sure that there are skulls involved as symbols of some allied units as well. Not all German soldiers wore skulls on their uniforms. Actually, only very few did.

If you call everything religion, then you can add things up that way, however few people see Stalin as motivated by religion.

I do not call "everything" a religion. However, I see no means to distinguish religion from any other ideology and National Socialism as much as Communism, clearly are ideologies. They all promise things based on so called "eternal truths". Things that dont exist, that have meanwhile been proven wrong by science.
The very same can be said about catholicism.

[Diogenes]

It has to do with the competency and efficiency of Government. You know, those people who are overseeing how the money is being spent?

There are plenty of government programms that are just as inefficient and that are done by the Reps. Take their insistance on the Constellation programme for instance.

Remember how we were discussing Violent Conquering people like Constantine proclaiming themselves Christian? Well, the Republicans have the same problem. It is extremely frustrating to see the members of the party produce a platform that everyone says they agree on, then have Elected representatives ignore it completely in the addict like pursuit of the Government's Dollars drug.

Rest assured, if it's a government program, it is philosophically on the side of the Democrats. The exceptions being defense and law enforcement.

What is a red star compared to a death's head for inducing a shudder?

I am not 100% sure, but I am pretty sure that there skulls involved as symbols of some allied units as well. Not all German soldiers wore skulls on their uniforms. Actually, only very few did.

The point is, it lends itself to photogenic evilisation. You want a bad guy? How about someone dressed in Black with Skull symbols? Central casting couldn't ask for more, except perhaps some ritualistic looking dagger. Oh wait, they had that too!

If you call everything religion, then you can add things up that way, however few people see Stalin as motivated by religion.

I do not call "everything" a religion. However, I see no means to distinguish religion from any other ideology and National Socialism as much as Communism, clearly are ideologies. They all promise things based on so called "eternal truths". Things that dont exist, that have meanwhile been proven wrong by science.
The very same can be said about catholicism.

Cows and monkeys both have tails, so obviously they are the same.

[Skipjack]

Rest assured, if it's a government program, it is philosophically on the side of the Democrats.

Well, the Dems want to get rid of it and replace it with a commercial solution. Free market and all that. The Reps, e.g. Shelby from Alabama are against it. Why? Because of the money for their states.
That the whole thing will never lead anywhere, is years behind schedule and more expensive than anticipated does not bother these Republican spenders even the slightiest bid. Why? Because they benefit from the programme! Guess what? They are just like the Dems when it comes to government money. Just the same! They just want to spend it on things that are good for them, which usualy conflicts with what is good for the Dems.
All the same if you ask me.

How about someone dressed in Black with Skull symbols?

Very few of them wore black too.
In any case, it does not matter. I just find that ridiculing a serious topic like this is a dangerous thing. It will give way to this happening again. It could happen, even in the US.

Cows and monkeys both have tails, so obviously they are the same.

They are both mammals.

[Diogenes]

Rest assured, if it's a government program, it is philosophically on the side of the Democrats.

Well, the Dems want to get rid of it and replace it with a commercial solution. Free market and all that. The Reps, e.g. Shelby from Alabama are against it. Why? Because of the money for their states.
That the whole thing will never lead anywhere, is years behind schedule and more expensive than anticipated does not bother these Republican spenders even the slightiest bid. Why? Because they benefit from the programme! Guess what? They are just like the Dems when it comes to government money. Just the same! They just want to spend it on things that are good for them, which usualy conflicts with what is good for the Dems.
All the same if you ask me.

This behavior is an infestation with both parties, and is a major reason why the nation needs term limits for it's congressmen. There are plenty of Republican incumbents addicted to the money flow, and their misbehavior for the last ten years has contributed to creating the economic nightmare that we are dealing with now.

With that being said, the Democrats are usually far worse than the Republicans. With Republicans, it's completely against their stated philosophy, but with Democrats, it exactly in accordance with their stated philosophy. Republicans who do it are hypocrites, while Democrats who do it are just following their party's philosophy.

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How about someone dressed in Black with Skull symbols?

Very few of them wore black too.
In any case, it does not matter. I just find that ridiculing a serious topic like this is a dangerous thing. It will give way to this happening again. It could happen, even in the US.

It IS happening in the US. The guy we got now is the closest thing to a Nazi we've ever had in this nation's history. His philosophy, his thuggish tactics and his brown shirt brigades (actually they wear purple shirts, but they do the same thing) his threats and intimidation, his easy willingness to break whatever law he feels like. He had even started a group called "Obama Youth" until people pointed out how eerily similar it looked and behaved to "Hitler Youth."

The National Socialists resurgence in America is no joke to those of us who have been looking at the signs and comparing them to what has happened before.

Cows and monkeys both have tails, so obviously they are the same.

They are both mammals.

They are both living organisms. They both have hair, ears, eyes, noses, etc.

The similarities do not overcome the fact that they are quite different in the specifics.

[Skipjack]

It IS happening in the US. The guy we got now is the closest thing to a Nazi we've ever had in this nation's history.

Well, from my perspective your last president was way worse. So many human rights violations and violations of privacy...

The similarities do not overcome the fact that they are quite different in the specifics.

Your comparisons are lame.