The Reality Of Progressivism

Discuss life, the universe, and everything with other members of this site. Get to know your fellow polywell enthusiasts.

Moderators: tonybarry, MSimon

kcdodd
Posts: 722
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2008 3:36 am
Location: Austin, TX

Post by kcdodd »

Diogenes wrote:
Just goes to show how much you know about Hitler and the National Socialist German Workers Party. Virtually every idea favored by Liberals was thought of first by Hitler and the NAZIonal Sozialists.
This is false. They hated liberals, communism, etc. It might surprise you that FDR, who was president during WWII, was a progressive. My point is that generalizations are faulty and it is interesting you took my post so literally.

I don't know the accuracy of this map, but it makes my point well enough:
Image



Diogenes wrote:The accusations against conservatives as being anti-minority is nothing but long term liberal propaganda that is still ongoing today. (The media people loved Hitler too.) Last I noticed, the Republicans are running 32 Black candidates in this November's election. I've already sent money to Allen West and Charles Djou. I was one of the first people to call JC Watts at his office at the Oklahoma Corporation commission and offer my money and my support if he would run.
I think the accusations are fairly well founded. Looking at the history of civil rights, and my own personal experience, it has been those holding the conservative banner who have stood in the way of advance.
Carter

Diogenes
Posts: 6976
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:33 pm

Post by Diogenes »

kcdodd wrote:
Diogenes wrote:
Just goes to show how much you know about Hitler and the National Socialist German Workers Party. Virtually every idea favored by Liberals was thought of first by Hitler and the NAZIonal Sozialists.
This is false. They hated liberals, communism, etc.
They were competitors with the communists, but they were both pushing the same line. I wonder if you have read any of my previous posts concerning the close relationship between the Communists (red shirts) and the National Socialists (Brown Shirts.) ?

You speak as though you haven't the slightest familiarity with the issue. Has no one ever shown you how close is the National Socialist agenda with the Communist agenda?

kcdodd wrote: It might surprise you that FDR, who was president during WWII, was a progressive.
Yes, i'm fully aware of this, as is anyone who has done even the most rudimentary study of this part of American History. Communism was popular in the 1920s-1930s. Especially among the elites. The Financial misery the Nation is suffering today is directly related to the Socialist ideas which Franklin Roosevelt pushed on to us. I guess you are saying that being to the Right of Adolf Hitler is some sort of compliment?


kcdodd wrote: My point is that generalizations are faulty and it is interesting you took my post so literally.
It is a common accusation by unknowledgeable people. I feel it is my duty to set them straight every time I come across one. The Philosophy of Adolf Hitler is a Left-Wing Philosophy. That of Statism, Socialism and subjugation. It's in their freakin NAME for God's sake! National SOCIALISTS.


kcdodd wrote:
Diogenes wrote:The accusations against conservatives as being anti-minority is nothing but long term liberal propaganda that is still ongoing today. (The media people loved Hitler too.) Last I noticed, the Republicans are running 32 Black candidates in this November's election. I've already sent money to Allen West and Charles Djou. I was one of the first people to call JC Watts at his office at the Oklahoma Corporation commission and offer my money and my support if he would run.

I think the accusations are fairly well founded. Looking at the history of civil rights,
Rebuttal. There are better rebuttals, but this was the first one I laid my hands on.


kcdodd wrote: and my own personal experience,
I can't rebut that, it is non falsifiable, at least to me.

kcdodd wrote: it has been those holding the conservative banner who have stood in the way of advance.

Really? Pray tell how? By establishing standards without regards to a persons characteristics?

What is advancement? Creating as Lyndon Johnson did, a "Great Society" which insured the impoverishment of millions of people because it replaced the Father with the Government?

You need to study your history more thoroughly and not listen to people who do not know what they are talking about.

kcdodd
Posts: 722
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2008 3:36 am
Location: Austin, TX

Post by kcdodd »

You are simply attributing those aspects which you don't like to liberals. Modern conservatism and liberalism both enact policy through, guess what, government. You can't call liberals to be statists, and then say conservatives are not. They simply have different views on what the states uses its power to do. Conservatives want to keep gay people from getting married, liberals want everyone to have equal access to healthcare. If your issue is money, that is one thing, but it doesn't make liberals like stalin or hitler. They are very far removed from either party today, but yet again you take it so seriously you have missed the point altogether. If you look at the nolan diagram you can see that hitler was very much the opposite end as progressives. But, I suppose you follow the school of Glen Beck and simply redefine what it means to be progressive.
Carter

Diogenes
Posts: 6976
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:33 pm

Post by Diogenes »

kcdodd wrote:You are simply attributing those aspects which you don't like to liberals. Modern conservatism and liberalism both enact policy through, guess what, government. You can't call liberals to be statists, and then say conservatives are not.
Yes I can, because that is very accurate. Liberals want to make the state bigger. Conservatives want to make it smaller.

kcdodd wrote: They simply have different views on what the states uses its power to do.


This is true.
Liberals want to get more money from the people in America who make it, then Liberals want to decide who to give it to. You know, people MORE deserving than those who created it.

Conservatives want to let people keep as much of their money that they can, and only take what is necessary to run the proper and appropriate functions of Government. I.E. Defending us all from Foreign Enemies and maintaining law and order.

Liberals want to fund the Arts. Conservatives do not.
Liberals want to fund welfare. Conservatives do not.
Liberals want to punish "greedy" people. Conservatives do not.
Liberals want to use Government to destabilize and destroy traditional notions of right and wrong, and conservatives don't.
Liberals support Gun Control. (Using threat of government Law/Force to prevent people from having guns) conservatives do not.

Yes, the central point is how each side wants to use the Government. The Liberal side wants to use it actively, and the Conservative side wants it to sit on it's hands outside of it's original mandate.

Notice the common theme?
Liberals pursue an Active government. Conservatives want the government to do NOTHING extra. If it isn't law or defense, the government has no business being involved in it.

kcdodd wrote: Conservatives want to keep gay people from getting married,
Yes, this is true. Marriage, by definition and long tradition is restricted to opposite sexes, and is not only meaningless to homosexuals, but is an insult to people who believe in marriage. "Gay" marriage is promoted for the purpose of provoking outrage, nothing more. It's just an in your face slap at the people they hate.

kcdodd wrote: liberals want everyone to have equal access to healthcare.

That OTHER people PAY for! Don't you get what slavery is? Conservatives want people to pay their OWN bills. The notion that anything is free is what is killing us economically!

kcdodd wrote: If your issue is money, that is one thing, but it doesn't make liberals like stalin or hitler.
It isn't just money. It's an attack on the very fabric of the nation and society. It is the tearing down of normal ideas of right and wrong, and replacing them with falsehoods that are only apparent after the disaster they created. Welfare has caused far more damage socially than you seem to understand. It has made it possible to create millions of unwanted fatherless children who grow up into a crime infested society with no hope for the future and then who wreak misery on themselves and everyone else.

The people who are pushing these agendas are following the path of Hitler and Stalin, and the bodies are piling up. Some people just don't recognize that the death toll was caused by statism.


kcdodd wrote: They are very far removed from either party today, but yet again you take it so seriously you have missed the point altogether. If you look at the nolan diagram you can see that hitler was very much the opposite end as progressives. But, I suppose you follow the school of Glen Beck and simply redefine what it means to be progressive.
The Diagram is someone's opinion. It isn't PROOF of anything except that whoever created it saw things that way. I have studied Communism, Nazism, Socialism, Liberalism, progressiveism, for many years. I have read a great deal about this subject, and I have discussed it at great length with countless people.

I have a much better handle on understanding the histories and motivation of left wing people, than I suspect you do concerning the history of the American right.


For example, did you know Roger Baldwin and Margaret Sanger were lovers? Did you know that Nathan Bedford Forrest was a Delegate to the New York Democrat convention in 1868? Did you know that John Maynard Keyenes was a homosexual? Did you know it was the Marque De Sade that triggered the French Revolution? Did you know Andrew Jackson founded the DNC?

The American right is if anything, Constitutionalists. Constitutionalists.

kcdodd
Posts: 722
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2008 3:36 am
Location: Austin, TX

Post by kcdodd »

No, they are not. You have distorted what conservatives and liberals work toward. I am a gay american citizen, and you are clearly prejudiced against me as a minority. I have already stated that is a continuous position of conservatives, and you have supported it.

Not all liberals believe in a welfare state. I don't. But what I do believe in is a system which is fair. If someone does not work for a company who carries group medical coverage, they are at a disadvantage to everyone else who does. Different rules apply to them. It is not about a free ride. Its about being let on the bus. I have been denied individual medical coverage, and if it was not for my job i still would not be covered. My partner is still not covered, and of course can never be covered under my policy because of people like you.

Coverage can also be removed, or price jacked, on people who have it when they develop illness. There also needs to be further regulation of primary care to prevent over-payments, over-treatments which are also contributing to health care costs in the Medicare and Medicaid programs we already have. Guess what, there is more in the healthcare bill than just mandatory coverage, which is also a solution to health insurance costs on those who are not already covered. There are many programs being instituted in the bill to find and curb costs. This is not state run healthcare! It is state-regulated healthcare! There is a difference.
Carter

MSimon
Posts: 14335
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:37 pm
Location: Rockford, Illinois
Contact:

Post by MSimon »

Looking at the history of civil rights
Yeah. Let us look at history.

When the American Civil Rights Bill was passed in '67 a greater proportion of Republicans voted for it than Democrats.

Progressive President Democrat Woodrow Wilson introduced segregation to the Federal Government. He was quite KKK friendly.

In the late 1850s the Democrats were the party of slavery and the Republicans were the abolitionist party.

Eugenics was a progressive movement. It was also racist.

http://97.74.65.51/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=16217

===

My guess is that despite your call for a look at history you would prefer to ignore it.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

MSimon
Posts: 14335
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:37 pm
Location: Rockford, Illinois
Contact:

Post by MSimon »

Coverage can also be removed, or price jacked, on people who have it when they develop illness. There also needs to be further regulation of primary care to prevent over-payments, over-treatments which are also contributing to health care costs in the Medicare and Medicaid programs we already have.


This is all the result of third party payment systems (insurance).

And of course to insure fairness the medical profession must become slaves to the state. Price controls lead to one of two things: under service or over costs. Because no bureaucrat is capable of matching supply to demand well.

What of the Drs (and other medical service providers) who do not wish to be controlled by the state?

Are you aware of the movement (nascent at this time) of Doctors who will not take insurance payments of any kind in order to reduce overhead? Fee for service medicine is staging a comeback. It reduces costs by a factor of 4X (roughly).

And since when did stealing from others (by government guns) become a right? Have you seen what is happening to Greece? It is unsustainable.

Every one has problems in life. It is the job of government bureaucracy to maintain those problems. Asking for a government solution is asking for a perpetuation of those problems. And I just don't direct that at you. I tell the same thing to my anti-abortion friends.

Asking for men with guns to fix your angst is a sign of the weakness of your cause.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

MSimon
Posts: 14335
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:37 pm
Location: Rockford, Illinois
Contact:

Post by MSimon »

Modern conservatism and liberalism both enact policy through, guess what, government.


I have been saying for the last 20+ years that is a bad idea.

Portugal, Italy, Ireland, Greece, Spain are proof positive (as if the USSR was not lesson enough) that such policy enactments are generally a very bad idea.

In fact the Tea Party movement is a rebellion against "Modern Conservatism". Look at what happened to Bob Bennett in Utah.

You can have Big Government or Liberty. Choose one.

Image
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

MSimon
Posts: 14335
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:37 pm
Location: Rockford, Illinois
Contact:

Post by MSimon »

Yes, this is true. Marriage, by definition and long tradition is restricted to opposite sexes, and is not only meaningless to homosexuals, but is an insult to people who believe in marriage.


Only to the easily insulted.

In fact government got into the marriage business to prevent miscegenation. Not an auspicious beginning.

The government should stay out of the marriage business. Among other things the government should stay out of.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

MSimon
Posts: 14335
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:37 pm
Location: Rockford, Illinois
Contact:

Post by MSimon »

Liberals want to fund the Arts. Conservatives do not.
Liberals want to fund welfare. Conservatives do not.
Liberals want to punish "greedy" people. Conservatives do not.
Liberals want to use Government to destabilize and destroy traditional notions of right and wrong, and conservatives don't.
Liberals support Gun Control. (Using threat of government Law/Force to prevent people from having guns) conservatives do not.
Conservatives do not want government funding the arts.

Conservatives believe and practice private welfare. They believe government welfare is pernicious.

Conservatives believesthat "greed" is natural to humans (and all other species for that matter). So liberals want to punish human nature. Swell.

Conservative believe that ideas of right and wrong should evolve as people change their minds. Liberals believe in putting guns to people's heads to effect change. A rather totalitarian notion.

Conservative believe self defense is a natural right. As evidenced in every living thing. Liberals believe that the law abiding should be disarmed along with criminal. Funny thing though. Criminals don't obey those laws. Or as some like to say: "When seconds count the police are only minutes away."

So what is the unity in the Conservative position: "Government is not the solution to our problems. In most cases it is the cause of our problems."

I intend to destroy all these "liberal" notions. For one thing I used to believe them myself. There is no one so zealous as a convert to a different way of thinking.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

Diogenes
Posts: 6976
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:33 pm

Post by Diogenes »

kcdodd wrote:No, they are not. You have distorted what conservatives and liberals work toward. I am a gay american citizen, and you are clearly prejudiced against me as a minority. I have already stated that is a continuous position of conservatives, and you have supported it.
You see, the issue with many people in America is that homosexuals don't just want to be tolerated, they want to be affirmed. In other words, they want people to be AWARE and APPROVING of their sexual activities, when most people would rather not know about it. The idea that most people don't talk about what sort of sexual activities they engage in simply doesn't occur to these people. For example, suppose someone announced to the world that they prefer to be tied face down naked over a log with their head in a bucket of spiders, while someone spanks them with a dead cat?

Who wants to hear about this? People that like this sort of thing, (and believe you me, I don't doubt for a minute that SOMEONE out there would like this sort of thing. :) ) don't make a point of letting others know they like that sort of thing. It is considered deviant, and alarming. It may surprise you to hear that I have researched Human Sexuality and the subset of Homosexuality quite a bit more than the average joe. I can discuss the subject in details that would make most people squirm. I've read the prominent current theories on the topic, and i've got my own insight to throw into the mix.

kcdodd wrote: Not all liberals believe in a welfare state. I don't. But what I do believe in is a system which is fair.
I'm with you so far.


kcdodd wrote: If someone does not work for a company who carries group medical coverage, they are at a disadvantage to everyone else who does.
You mean someone has something that someone else doesn't? And the government should fix this?


kcdodd wrote: Different rules apply to them. It is not about a free ride. Its about being let on the bus. I have been denied individual medical coverage, and if it was not for my job i still would not be covered. My partner is still not covered, and of course can never be covered under my policy because of people like you.

This does not bother me at all, but it does illustrate one of the major problems with health care. It's the INSURANCE that is the problem. When people paid their own bills, they would simply refuse to pay for procedures that were too exorbitant and would shop around for the best deal they could get. Now that someone else is paying the bill, they just don't care if the Insurance company gets gouged.

How did we get here? Again, government interference. Back in the 1970s, the Tax rates were so high that people didn't WANT raises because it placed them in higher tax brackets, and people ended up with LESS money than without a raise. In an effort to provide incentives to people, many companies started giving employees health insurance because it was non taxable. It was a way of giving employees a raise (benefit) without forcing them backwards economically. It became common practice, and then it started pushing up the medical costs.

When doctors don't have to compete, they charge what they feel like. They usually feel like they want a lot, and who cares anyway? After all, It's not like their hurting anyone. Just some big Insurance fund. The Doctor Doesn't Care, the Patient doesn't care, so who cares? The Insurance company cares, so they start jacking up the rates to pay for other peoples lack of concern over the gouging.


To reiterate. Government Produces a punitive tax structure. Companies respond by providing nontaxable benefits. Dr.s (medical companies) take advantage of the unlimited pocketbook, and patients don't care because they aren't paying for the excessive costs. (till later when insurance companies jack up the rates.)





kcdodd wrote: Coverage can also be removed, or price jacked, on people who have it when they develop illness. There also needs to be further regulation of primary care to prevent over-payments, over-treatments which are also contributing to health care costs in the Medicare and Medicaid programs we already have.
Not to mention "defensive medicine". The condition in which doctors run extra expensive and unnecessary tests to make sure that if something goes wrong, they have protected themselves from the lawyer sharks.




kcdodd wrote: Guess what, there is more in the healthcare bill than just mandatory coverage, which is also a solution to health insurance costs on those who are not already covered.

It solves nothing. It makes things worse. It creates the illusion of a solution, but in practice results in rationing and poor service.
kcdodd wrote: There are many programs being instituted in the bill to find and curb costs. This is not state run healthcare! It is state-regulated healthcare! There is a difference.

The people who wrote the bill doesn't even know what it says, nor how much it costs. See here? Please don't insult my intelligence by claiming that any of this thrown together, bribe infested, darkness of night, skullduggery, pile of crap, written and passed by crooks and idiots will improve anything.

Diogenes
Posts: 6976
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:33 pm

Post by Diogenes »

MSimon wrote:
Modern conservatism and liberalism both enact policy through, guess what, government.


I have been saying for the last 20+ years that is a bad idea.

Portugal, Italy, Ireland, Greece, Spain are proof positive (as if the USSR was not lesson enough) that such policy enactments are generally a very bad idea.

In fact the Tea Party movement is a rebellion against "Modern Conservatism". Look at what happened to Bob Bennett in Utah.



This is sort of funny. What *I've* Read of the issue indicates he was defeated because he wasn't conservative enough! This is Utah we are talking about you know. :) The only other state in the Union that had ZERO counties vote for Obama was Oklahoma. :)

MSimon wrote: You can have Big Government or Liberty. Choose one.

Image

Amen.

Diogenes
Posts: 6976
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:33 pm

Post by Diogenes »

MSimon wrote:
Yes, this is true. Marriage, by definition and long tradition is restricted to opposite sexes, and is not only meaningless to homosexuals, but is an insult to people who believe in marriage.


Only to the easily insulted.


Easily insulted is in the eye of the beholder. Say something unflattering about Mohamed. :)

Most people regard homosexual marriage with the same disdain they regard polygamous marriage. Or inter special marriage. Just this week I read where a guy "Married" his cat, and another guy "Married" his pillow. People who regard Marriage as a reverential institution do not find such stunts amusing.



MSimon wrote: In fact government got into the marriage business to prevent miscegenation. Not an auspicious beginning.

The government should stay out of the marriage business. Among other things the government should stay out of.

I have heard this repeated often, and I never thought to question it before. But upon a moments worth of thinking, it seems to me that this cannot be right. Does not inheritance and succession make it within the government's duty to officiate marriages? And if so, does this not mean that the Government was properly involved in Marriages going back millenia?

Were there never property and legalities involved, the Government would have no reason to be involved in marriage, nor would they probably have any desire to be.

kcdodd
Posts: 722
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2008 3:36 am
Location: Austin, TX

Post by kcdodd »

MSimon

The civil rights campaign is one big reason why there is such a strong split between conservative republicans and liberal democrats. It has not always been that way. That is why republicans have to be very careful when they talk about it being a republican (aka Lincoln) who freed the slaves, and not a conservative. He was very liberal, and your opinions very much oppose those of Lincoln. The democratic party had a fairly good foothold in the south, until it came to the passage civil rights legislations, which started the trend of the south being solidly republican. If it were republicans who had pushed civil rights then you can bet the south would vote democrat today.

As for the government control, perhaps you are correct or perhaps not. Power is usually filled regardless. Before government regulations you had extremely powerful companies, dangerous working conditions, unfair trade practices, child labor, etc, etc. There must be a balance somewhere in between.

Diogenes

I really don't care what qualifications you think you have. I am gay, and I think I know more about being gay than you do. It is unfortunate you cannot hear how stupid your arguments are. "traditional marriage" is a parade of heterosexuality down the streets of USA, which is consummated by sex between the parties involved, and is by your own admission an institution created for procreation and children. You dare claim that I, by simply saying that i am gay, and wanting to be able to get married to another person who also is a guy, is somehow revealing more about my sexuality than the hundreds of thousands of people who get married every year.
Carter

MSimon
Posts: 14335
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:37 pm
Location: Rockford, Illinois
Contact:

Post by MSimon »

I have heard this repeated often, and I never thought to question it before. But upon a moments worth of thinking, it seems to me that this cannot be right.
I have actually done some research on the subject. I can flood the post with links or you can take my word for it.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

Post Reply