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MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

Not necessarily. Who says that there wont be more doctors if there is more work available for them?
There are unlimited opportunities for work. Some people could be digging holes and others could be filling them in.

Why don't we see much of that?

Well no one is paying enough to get the work done.

Say. Why aren't you out there digging and filling holes? There are plenty of opportunities for it. Lots of work available and you are shirking your duties.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

Grant was one of the best Generals ever.

1. He pinned Lee when no one else could.
2. He understood the principle "hold them by the nose, kick them in the pants". Grant held them by the nose and Sherman - under Grant's orders - kicked them in the pants.
3. Lee's casualties were not significantly less than Grant's and Lee was defending.
4. Lee had good things to say about Grant as a General.
5. Grant understood how to co-ordinate large separated armies for best effect.

Grant nominally lost the battle of the Wilderness and advanced. Lee won and retreated.

Grant nullified Lee's great advantage - mobility.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

Skipjack
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Post by Skipjack »

Say. Why aren't you out there digging and filling holes? There are plenty of opportunities for it. Lots of work available and you are shirking your duties.
Yolu dont make any sense Simon.

Diogenes
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Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:33 pm

Post by Diogenes »

MSimon wrote:Grant was one of the best Generals ever.

1. He pinned Lee when no one else could.
2. He understood the principle "hold them by the nose, kick them in the pants". Grant held them by the nose and Sherman - under Grant's orders - kicked them in the pants.
3. Lee's casualties were not significantly less than Grant's and Lee was defending.
4. Lee had good things to say about Grant as a General.
5. Grant understood how to co-ordinate large separated armies for best effect.

Grant nominally lost the battle of the Wilderness and advanced. Lee won and retreated.

Grant nullified Lee's great advantage - mobility.
Okay. If you feel that way, fine. It's not worth arguing about. I will merely point out that Anyone can eventually win a war of attrition if they have enough people and material.

Diogenes
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Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:33 pm

Post by Diogenes »

Skipjack wrote:
Say. Why aren't you out there digging and filling holes? There are plenty of opportunities for it. Lots of work available and you are shirking your duties.
Yolu dont make any sense Simon.
Reductio Ad Absurdum.

Skipjack
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Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:29 pm

Post by Skipjack »

Reductio Ad Absurdum.
Well, I dont see the relevance of digging and filling holes in this context.
We are talking about treating sick people. That is an action with a purpose. He is talking about digging holes and then filling them again, which does not fullfill a purpose. Therefore he is not making any sense.
Maybe you can elighten me though.

Diogenes
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Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:33 pm

Post by Diogenes »

Skipjack wrote:
Reductio Ad Absurdum.
Well, I dont see the relevance of digging and filling holes in this context.
We are talking about treating sick people. That is an action with a purpose. He is talking about digging holes and then filling them again, which does not fullfill a purpose. Therefore he is not making any sense.
Maybe you can elighten me though.
He is addressing your point that " More work is always good" (or whatever it was you said along these lines.) by proffering a ridiculous example of a condition in which the work is meaningless, and therefore NOT good.

Sometimes I really think communications is the biggest barrier we have to understanding. I know *I* seldom get my points across, no matter how clearly I attempt to explain them. It reminds me of what Karl Popper said.

"It is impossible to speak in such a way that you cannot be misunderstood."
Last edited by Diogenes on Sun Apr 04, 2010 9:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

Skipjack wrote:
Say. Why aren't you out there digging and filling holes? There are plenty of opportunities for it. Lots of work available and you are shirking your duties.
Yolu dont make any sense Simon.
There is lots of work undone. Why aren't you doing it?
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

MSimon
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Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:37 pm
Location: Rockford, Illinois
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Post by MSimon »

I will merely point out that Anyone can eventually win a war of attrition if they have enough people and material.
Grant's genius was subtle. It was not to out maneuver Lee. It was to keep Lee from maneuvering. Now of course that seems trivial except when you consider how many Generals had tried to do it and failed.

Mead couldn't do it after Gettysburg. And yet Grant did it in the Wilderness.

Here is a first person account of Grant's tactics:

Campaigning with Grant

What you have bought into is the Southern revisionist histories that started appearing in the "lost cause" era. Also in BHL Hart's otherwise excellent Strategy

In fact though Hart nailed it in his more general thesis when he talked about concentration. The thesis was: in order to get mobility you may need to concentrate the vast majority of your troops on a frontal threat in order to pin the enemy so that the mobile troops could get freedom of action. Or as Patton put it more succinctly - hold 'em by the nose and kick 'em in the pants.

Grant was the nose holder. Sherman was his kick in the pants. And even Hart said Grant was no mere pounder. He was always trying to turn Lee's flank. The operations on the Weldon Railroad are instructive in that regard.
Last edited by MSimon on Sun Apr 04, 2010 11:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

Skipjack
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Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:29 pm

Post by Skipjack »

Karl Poppers
It is Karl Popper without the S at the end.
He is addressing your point that " More work is always good" (or whatever it was you said along these lines.) by proffering a ridiculous example of a condition in which the work is meaningless, and therefore NOT good.
So you think that treating sick people is meaningless work?
Maybe I should have been more clear. More meaningful and
paid
work is always good.
Both will be the case when treating patients. So MSimons comparison still does not make sense. But maybe he missunderstood me?

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

OK. You have $250,000 invested in education. Another $200,000 invested in your practice and employee overheads of $200 a day.

I offer to pay you enough so that each patient I deliver and you treat generates a $1 profit per patient. Let us say that a college professors salary (about $100,000 a year in the US) will suffice for you. And you are willing to work 10 hours a day for 350 days a year. You only need to see about 28 patients an hour. About 1 every 2 minutes. Quality care for sure.

Care to take my offer? Or is more work not always good? Might you want to find something more profitable to do?

Now suppose you have profitable patients (covered by cash or insurance) and loss making patients (delivered by government). What will you do?

Doctors Are Opting Out of Medicare :
The doctors’ reasons: reimbursement rates are too low and paperwork too much of a hassle.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/02/busin ... ealth.html
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

Skipjack
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Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:29 pm

Post by Skipjack »

Now suppose you have profitable patients (covered by cash or insurance) and loss making patients (delivered by government). What will you do?

Yeah, but medicare and medicaid have already been there in the past.
Obama was not the one to introduce those.
Besides, I think that many of these oppinion pieces are overly exaggerating the issue.

Also, as I mentioned before: Doctors here in Austria are making a good living. They are not as rich as the doctors in the US, but their risk and their costs are lower too (university is free, lower insurance costs, etc).
You guys need to work out the kinks in your system. It is terribly convoluted, because to many lobbies are trying to press their interests.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

Yeah, but medicare and medicaid have already been there in the past. Obama was not the one to introduce those.
So true. It was done by other Democrats.

Obama just wants to compound the misery.

and yeah you just can't trust the reports. They are lying.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/11/17/pr ... ors.study/
So here is the cause of your doctor's pain in 2007. Behind him or her is a 15-year trend of diminishing fees that shows no signs of abating. Graduating med students aren't blind; they see established physicians with busy practices dropping out. Looking ahead they see more headaches--more controls and regulations, more scrutiny, more liability, less money. So what has the resourceful American doc done?

Welcome to the world of alternative medical income. Some docs leave medicine; six weeks of securities-trading classes and you can be a stockbroker. Most try to do something quasi-medical. Three top bailout categories of this sort have emerged: cosmetics, diagnostics and what I call "nothing-really-works-anyway therapies" (NRWATs).

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... z0k8L8A4Yf
As high as 20% of physicians are dissatisfied with practice and are contemplating leaving clinical practice. In the past, one of the barriers for physicians leaving practice was the answer to the question, "How will I replace my income from practicing medicine?"

The new question which is now being asked by physicians is, "How much money am I losing by not leaving and going into business?"

Physicians who are highly intelligent and educated, dedicated, and hard working are learning that they can use these assets in the business world.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/65996.php
http://www.healthcentral.com/drdean/408/60713.html

And some doctors are setting up cash and carry clinics. Eliminate the paperwork and lower the fees.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

Diogenes
Posts: 6976
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:33 pm

Post by Diogenes »

Skipjack wrote:
Karl Poppers
It is Karl Popper without the S at the end.
So it is. I corrected it above. Fascinating fellow, with fascinating ideas. Another Austrian :). I especially like his "paradox of tolerance." It exactly mirrors some thinking I did back in the early 90s. Of course he thought of it first, but I thought of it as well without any knowledge of his work. I suppose it's rather obvious, at least to conservatives. We have to deal with this sort of thinking on a regular basis. :)



He is addressing your point that " More work is always good" (or whatever it was you said along these lines.) by proffering a ridiculous example of a condition in which the work is meaningless, and therefore NOT good.
So you think that treating sick people is meaningless work? [/quote]

To me, the wonderfullness of the work is not the issue here, it is whether or not someone should be compelled to work on someone elses behalf.

It is simply another iteration of the slavery issue.

Sick people need to be healed, Hungry people need to eat food, homeless people need shelter. Those of us who feel that something needs to be done should do something, but what we should NOT do is make OTHER people do something.

Diogenes
Posts: 6976
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:33 pm

Post by Diogenes »

MSimon wrote:
I will merely point out that Anyone can eventually win a war of attrition if they have enough people and material.
Grant's genius was subtle. It was not to out maneuver Lee. It was to keep Lee from maneuvering. Now of course that seems trivial except when you consider how many Generals had tried to do it and failed.

Mead couldn't do it after Gettysburg. And yet Grant did it in the Wilderness.

Here is a first person account of Grant's tactics:

Campaigning with Grant

What you have bought into is the Southern revisionist histories that started appearing in the "lost cause" era. Also in BHL Hart's otherwise excellent Strategy

In fact though Hart nailed it in his more general thesis when he talked about concentration. The thesis was: in order to get mobility you may need to concentrate the vast majority of your troops on a frontal threat in order to pin the enemy so that the mobile troops could get freedom of action. Or as Patton put it more succinctly - hold 'em by the nose and kick 'em in the pants.

Grant was the nose holder. Sherman was his kick in the pants. And even Hart said Grant was no mere pounder. He was always trying to turn Lee's flank. The operations on the Weldon Railroad are instructive in that regard.

Well, there IS this famous quote.

"He is a butcher and is not fit to be at the head of an army. Yes, he generally manages to claim a victory, but such a victory! He loses two men to the enemy's one. He has no management, no regard for life."

And there is a fellow that says he wasn't.

http://www.amazon.com/Victor-Not-Butche ... 089526062X

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