AGW Supporters always ignore this question

[Skipjack]

CaptainBeowulf.
As you might remember the war was started when the Austrian heir to the crown was shot.
Of course the Brits and French were very happy to join in on the war. They had been preparing for that for a looong time.
Of course nowadays the winners rewrite the history books to their liking and make the Germans the sole bad guys.

At the time Hitler took Germany, people were starving while the Brits were firing their steam ships with the wheat from our reparation pays. People were eating Stauffer Fat and children ate the chalk of building walls because they suffered from a lack of chalk in their diet.

It does not matter in the end. What is in the past, is in the past.
I just wished the topic would finally disappear in a closet.

[alexjrgreen]

Read Mark Twain's account of Israel in his travels. A desolate place devoid of inhabitants.

Since this is often quoted, it's worth understanding why it's misleading.

Ottoman statistics put the population of Palestine in 1860 as 411,000 in a land area of roughly 40,000 square miles. Greece, which Mark Twain also visited and described in similar terms, then had a population of perhaps 800,000 in roughly 50,000 square miles.

At the time, these were reasonable population densities given the traditional style of farming employed.

To a westerner familiar with advances in agriculture, however, it was obvious that yields could be massively improved and much more land brought into cultivation. The conclusion that a much bigger population could be supported follows rationally, though "A desolate place devoid of inhabitants" is largely poetic exaggeration.

[MSimon]

Alex,

The knowledge available to the Jews was available to the Arabs. Certainly by the time the Jews started improving the area the Arabs could have learned from them.

Patton thought it was the culture of Islam that kept the people back.

"To me it seems certain that the fatalistic teachings of Muhammad and the utter degradation of women is the outstanding cause for the arrested development of the Arab. He is exactly as he was around the year 700, while we have kept on developing" -- General George S. Patton: The War as I Knew it

And something else: in the beginning the Jews bought their land. When they became a large enough fraction of the population the Arabs didn't like it and started treating Jews in the traditional way - like dhimmis. The Jews didn't like that and fought back. As the fighting escalated the Jews won territory. Unfortunate for the Arabs - consonant with what we like to call the rules of war.

Did losing to Jews humiliate the Arabs? Yes. But losing wars is humiliating. I was reading Prange on the aftermath of Pearl Harbor. He said the Japanese were humiliated by their loss in WW2. But the Japanese were not whiners. T

[alexjrgreen]

The knowledge available to the Jews was available to the Arabs. Certainly by the time the Jews started improving the area the Arabs could have learned from them.

This is certainly true, though during Ottoman times the more able found opportunities elsewhere. For the ones who stayed, the lack of water hampered traditional methods. It's debatable whether the current high level of water usage is sustainable.

Patton thought it was the culture of Islam that kept the people back.

"To me it seems certain that the fatalistic teachings of Muhammad and the utter degradation of women is the outstanding cause for the arrested development of the Arab. He is exactly as he was around the year 700, while we have kept on developing" -- General George S. Patton: The War as I Knew it

He misses the entire intervening flowering of Islamic culture, but it's certainly fair to say that the people had returned to their traditional ways.

Did losing to Jews humiliate the Arabs? Yes. But losing wars is humiliating.

Israelis have lots of ways of humiliating Palestinians. Like bulldozing their houses and building security walls on their land.

[KitemanSA]

The knowledge available to the Jews was available to the Arabs. Certainly by the time the Jews started improving the area the Arabs could have learned from them.

The arabs lived in balance with the territory for about a millenium. That balance included NOT putting water hungry activities on top of the hills, but only in the wadies. This makes it appear to the unknowing eye (MT) that the land is sparce and desolate. But it was at the maximum sustainable level of population.

The jews then came and applied other technologies to boost the productivity and thus carrying capacity of the land. Such technologies included farming of the hilltops with trans-ship water. It is still not clear whether such technologies are sustainable. It may, as the American wheat fields may, rely too much on fossile water.

One of the primary reasons I am so interested in Polywell is the promise that we will STOP as a species the draining of fossile reserves. We just don't know enough about what lowering the water tables like that will do. And cheap energy means cheap water, and water is the basis of all known life.

Cummon Polywell!

[MSimon]

Israelis have lots of ways of humiliating Palestinians. Like bulldozing their houses and building security walls on their land.

All the Arabs have to do to end that is make peace.

You are aware that for most of the ME countries (excepting Jordan and Egypt) the war is only in a truce stage. The Palis had an opportunity to make peace in 2000 and turned it down. Probably the best deal they will ever get.

But as you well know the Palis are pawns in the game. And they used to relish their role. Nowadays - not so much.

And you will note that the security wall was in response to the Pali tactic of suicide bombing. The Palis wanted war. They got a fence in return. Most unfortunate.

You will also note that the Egyptians are no more forthcoming with the Palis than the Israelis. The Egypt Gaza border is clamped tight except for the smuggling tunnels.

As to the Israeli economy: they are moving away from farming and towards high tech. In time - even if water is no longer available they will manage. What does the Pali economy produce? Cannon fodder (in the Palis own words as my link above from 2007 shows).

The Japanese had a similar problem in 1941 - the warrior ethic was the highest ethic in the land. Now a days it is of secondary importance. Total humiliation will do that. They believed at that time that the Americans wanted to totally dominate them. Instead after they fell (pushed down actually) the US picked them up. I believe the Israelis would do the same in response to a change in Pali culture.

In a lot of respects it is an artifact of history. At one time the Arabs were the greatest warriors in the world. By missing out on industrialization they declined. Have you read this:

http://www.unc.edu/depts/diplomat/AD_Is ... rabs1.html

ARABIC-SPEAKING ARMIES have been generally ineffective in the modern era. Egyptian regular forces did poorly against Yemeni irregulars in the 1960s. Syrians could only impose their will in Lebanon during the mid-1970s by the use of overwhelming weaponry and numbers. Iraqis showed ineptness against an Iranian military ripped apart by revolutionary turmoil in the 1980s and could not win a three-decades-long war against the Kurds. The Arab military performance on both sides of the 1990 Kuwait war was mediocre. And the Arabs have done poorly in nearly all the military confrontations with Israel. Why this unimpressive record? There are many factors — economic, ideological, technical — but perhaps the most important has to do with culture and certain societal attributes which inhibit Arabs from producing an effective military force.

This http://ezekielproject.org/ or other similar projects offer hope for water for the area. It is stalled for lack of agreement with Jordan - and the Israeli government is not on board either. Eventually something will be done.

[alexjrgreen]

Israelis have lots of ways of humiliating Palestinians. Like bulldozing their houses and building security walls on their land.

All the Arabs have to do to end that is make peace.

And you will note that the security wall was in response to the Pali tactic of suicide bombing. The Palis wanted war. They got a fence in return. Most unfortunate.

The Brits used to talk like this about the Catholics in Northern Ireland.

Collective punishment isn't justice, and it won't bring peace.

[MSimon]

Israelis have lots of ways of humiliating Palestinians. Like bulldozing their houses and building security walls on their land.

All the Arabs have to do to end that is make peace.

And you will note that the security wall was in response to the Pali tactic of suicide bombing. The Palis wanted war. They got a fence in return. Most unfortunate.

The Brits used to talk like this about the Catholics in Northern Ireland.

Collective punishment isn't justice, and it won't bring peace.

Actually it is working quite well for the Israelis. They withdrew from Gaza and walled it off. They walled off the Pali areas to the West.

With things under control they are trying economic development to the West. Gaza is on its own. They lob rockets. Supplies get strangled. It is what they voted for.

And collective punishment worked rather well against Japan and Germany. Germany was especially interesting. They were given a choice between bad (Brits, French, Merkins) and worse (Russians). Many chose bad over worse.

You see there is a fundamental difference of opinion as to what constitutes justice. Until that is sorted there will be war. And war is good for the Israelis. They get to test their latest devices on an accommodating population. If they work well they have a market for field tested eqpt. It makes no sense to me that the Palis would want to be on the receiving end of such tests. But there you have it.

BTW the latest eqpt. is defensive. The Gazans will provide rocket attacks (on their own dime) and the Israelis will attempt to down the rockets. Due to be installed in April. It will be interesting to see how it works.

As I understand it justice for the IRA was a general amnesty. None of their political demands were met. You will correct me if I'm in error.

BTW the Pali idea of justice is that the Jews leave the area and give it all to them. The Jews are of a different opinion. Look at the Pali maps. And think of the Pali slogan "from the river to the sea". Not very accommodating.

[alexjrgreen]

As I understand it justice for the IRA was a general amnesty. None of their political demands were met. You will correct me if I'm in error.

It wasn't justice for the IRA that brought peace. It was justice for the ordinary Catholics who were being denied jobs on religious grounds.

[MSimon]

As I understand it justice for the IRA was a general amnesty. None of their political demands were met. You will correct me if I'm in error.

It wasn't justice for the IRA that brought peace. It was justice for the ordinary Catholics who were being denied jobs on religious grounds.

Ah. Well then. No problem. Gaza is Judenrein. The Pali areas of the West Bank are Judenrein. Jews not welcome.

If the Palis want jobs from Jews I guess they are going to have to give up their ambitions to kill Jews.

Alex - the economies of the two peoples were integrating until the Intifada. In the 4 years before it started Pali unemployment went from 35% to 15% (roughly). I don't think jobs were the problem. Hatred was the problem. Still is.

Now why would the government of the Palis want to start a war when things were getting better for the people?

[MSimon]

Further. The greenhouses Bill Gates bought for the Palis was destroyed by them. Why? Because they wanted jobs?

[alexjrgreen]

You may be missing the point.

For Catholics in Northern Ireland, it wasn't the absence of jobs but the absence of justice that was the problem. Denial of employment was the symptom rather than the cause.

Discrimination against Palestinians and in favour of Jews is endemic in almost every aspect of Israeli bureaucracy.

Even basic justice issues like compensation for siezed land still haven't been addressed after sixty years.

[bcglorf]

You may be missing the point.

For Catholics in Northern Ireland, it wasn't the absence of jobs but the absence of justice that was the problem. Denial of employment was the symptom rather than the cause.

Discrimination against Palestinians and in favour of Jews is endemic in almost every aspect of Israeli bureaucracy.

Even basic justice issues like compensation for siezed land still haven't been addressed after sixty years.

I agree with your point, but your example is wrong. The basic justice for land Israel seized 60 years ago isn't an example of discrimination against Palestinians.

The border changes from the war of independence were paid for by both sides in blood. The balance of power 60 years ago between Arab and Jewish Palestinians looked much different than today. It makes some sense today to point out Israel's massive upper hand. 60 years ago though the fledgling Israeli independence movement faced practically the entire Arab world allied against them with the stated intent of driving them into the sea. Today Egypt and Jordan have made peace with Israel, and even Syria and Iran prefer smaller proxy battles to full scale, open war.

Sporadic and ineffective rockets hitting mostly unpopulated targets in Israel are hardly a threat to Israel's existence. Columns of Syrian, Jordanian and Egyptian tanks backed by air support most certainly were.

[MSimon]

Sporadic and ineffective rockets hitting mostly unpopulated targets in Israel are hardly a threat to Israel's existence.

So true. And suicide bombers don't imperil America.

But you know how it is. The people get annoyed and clamor for the politicians to DO SOMETHING.

You would think after 60 years of the Israelis DOING SOMETHING the Palis would wise up.

But maybe they have a culture like pre-WW2 Japan which glorifies the warrior. And for a warrior culture winning is not the most important thing. Fighting is.

From the American point of view the Japanese attack on America was unthinkable (mostly) because it was obviously not in the Japanese self interest.

Read:

Pearl Harbor: The Verdict of History

The chapter "Mental Attitude" is particularly instructive. p519 (hardcover edition) is particularly instructive.

At first glance, it seems reasonable that no nation will initiate a conflict without some expectation of ultimate victory.

Prange then goes on to discuss Japanese culture and why fighting made sense.

You are judging the Palis by your culture. Which is why the West has been unable to resolve the conflict.

The Israelis are content to go to war every few years to keep their armed forces up to snuff and bloody the noses of the Plalis. Resolution would require breaking their arms and legs and cracking their skulls.

The Lebanon adventure was instructive. The Israelis leveled everything the Palis owned until there were no more useful targets. Once things quieted down the northern border of Israel was quiet. Even during the rocket dust up with the Palis in 2008/2009 when attacks from the North and Gaza would have made military sense.

Evidently the Lebanese Palis said: "No Mas." Being relocated from nice apartment buildings to tent cities will do that to you.

[TallDave]

Israelis have lots of ways of humiliating Palestinians. Like bulldozing their houses and building security walls on their land.

All the Arabs have to do to end that is make peace.

It really is that simple.

Discrimination against Palestinians and in favour of Jews is endemic in almost every aspect of Israeli bureaucracy.

Because they aren't Israeili citizens. This is like complaining that Afghanis don't have the rights of American citizens even though we're occupying them.

Besides, the Palis have been treated far worse in Lebanon and Jordan, yet they aren't at war with those countries and no one seems to care they were never treated as citizens in those countries or any other Muslim country. The whole charade is just designed to evoke pity in naive Westerners and provide an ethno-religiously convenient excuse for Arab leaders to use emergency powers to crush internal dissent.

The Palestinians were supposed to get Israel when the Jews were driven into the sea. Instead the Arab tyrants were humiliated and emasculated and still haven't gotten over it 40 years later. So they make sure Palis grow up steeped in the most vile and despicable cauldron of hatred you can imagine. Mothers want their kids to grow up to blow up Israelis; they even encourage this on the Pali version of Sesame Street. It's sick and horrible and funded by the Arab states.