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Diogenes
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Post by Diogenes »

TallDave wrote:
Skipjack wrote:
Msimon wrote:Where did all the Euro Socialists come from?
Where did all the US Intelligent Design believers come from?
It's called "freedom of religion." You guys had ovens for Jews. I don't think you're in position to criticize us on that one.

And we Americans massacred the Indians and Kept Slaves. Oh, wait... That was our ancestors! Maybe we modern Americans shouldn't be blamed for the Actions of our ancestors?

Diogenes
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Post by Diogenes »

MSimon wrote:
Skipjack wrote:
Msimon wrote:Where did all the Euro Socialists come from?
Where did all the US Intelligent Design believers come from?
Bad thinking.

I must say though that the ID folks have done much less harm than the Socialists.
I don't care if people believe in Hari Krishna, as long as they don't want to take my money away from me forcibly.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

There is no disputing that the overall strategy was salvaged by a large infusion of blood, treasure, and time. I do believe, however, that it could have been done earlier and at far less cost in blood and treasure, and this is saying nothing of the political damage the initial screw up did to THIS country.
Wars are fought well only in retrospect and then only certain wars.

No plan survives contact with the enemy.

You are faced with the problem of decision making in the face of not only imperfect knowledge but also in the face of deception.

Bush pulled our chestnuts out of the fire. Very difficult. And in the face of a hostile Congress and public. Excellent.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

Diogenes
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Post by Diogenes »

TallDave wrote:
There was and is a wide variety of opinion in Islam. After the fall of Byzantium and the expulsion of Muslims from Spain, the drive for consolidation discouraged independent thinking, in much the same way as it had done previously in Catholic Europe. From a scientific viewpoint, both are highly regrettable.
The fall of Baghdad really crippled the Islamic liberals, who were already coming under fire. The battle between dogmatic faith and freethinking reason within Islam was pretty one-sided from then on. Even today, the Wahhabis are far too influential.

I agree. And they should be attacked on multiple fronts. Democracy across their borders will attack them on the Social Front, and Reduction of Oil exports will attack them on the monetary front.

Much can be said about the Genius of Invading Iraq. The Creation of a functioning prosperous Democracy in the heartland of the Arab peoples will give comfort and succor to reformers, while demoralizing tyrants and autocrats.

The plan is so ingenious in fact, I believe that George W. Bush had nothing to do with it. (Other than giving it official approval.)

Once the rest of the Arab world can see happiness and prosperity across their borders, they will demand it for themselves. They will turn away from Religious Dogma that keeps them poor and unhappy, and they will embrace a more tolerant manner of living happy. Much of the internal turmoil in Iran is likely the result of what the Iranians seeing as a more free Iraqi people.

I'm certain that the Plan was intended to trigger a "Democratic Domino Effect" across the middle east, and thereby possibly solving the Problem of peace in the Middle east. If this does indeed happen, George W. Bush will eventually be thought of as one of the Truly Great Presidents in US History.

Diogenes
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Post by Diogenes »

MSimon wrote:
There is no disputing that the overall strategy was salvaged by a large infusion of blood, treasure, and time. I do believe, however, that it could have been done earlier and at far less cost in blood and treasure, and this is saying nothing of the political damage the initial screw up did to THIS country.
Wars are fought well only in retrospect and then only certain wars.

No plan survives contact with the enemy.

You are faced with the problem of decision making in the face of not only imperfect knowledge but also in the face of deception.


NO NO NO NO. This is not the case for the aftermath of Iraq. It was instantaneously obvious to me that it would be a horrible mistake to announce Bathists couldn't remain in the Government, and that the Entire Iraqi army would be disbanded. I started screaming at my radio when I first heard about it, and I could not believe the how completely stupid the idea was. The consequence was exactly what I predicted, and exactly as I told every one I worked with at the time.

We have precedent to rely on. The Way we handled Nazi officials after World War II was an example of how the process SHOULD be done. And Remember, we had a ten times favorable ratio of our troops to their population.

What I found utterly astonishing is that Officers attend War colleges where they study scenarios like this. I couldn't believe that every single major officer in Iraq did not object to this idea.

It is my recollection that we defeated the Iraqi Defenders in march, and we had a period of relative quiet for a couple of months. Bremer makes his announcement, then all hell breaks loose. If you will recall, serious attacks and resistance didn't start until AFTER the Bremer announcement. Anyone with a lick of sense could have seen that coming. You just put a million of the most dangerous men in Iraq out of work, and then make sure they understand they will never have a future until You leave, then guess what they will be motivated to do ?

On a Different note, Napoleon's Battle plans it was said, could not only survive contact with the enemy, but he could orchestrate the enemy troop movements as easily as his own. The Battle of Austerlitz is a prime example of this.


MSimon wrote: Bush pulled our chestnuts out of the fire. Very difficult. And in the face of a hostile Congress and public. Excellent.

Yes, after obstinately waiting forever to see if the dumber of the two strategies was going to work eventually. A LOT of people noticed that the only way we were going to win this was to commit a great quantity more people to the fight. It is worth noting, that all of the Idiots (All Democrat Elected officials) were on the same side. Harry Reid Said the "War is Lost!" Barack Obama said the same. It is amazing that the people who were Absolutely wrong about this (and everything else they ever believed in.) are now burning up the clutch in the US Federal Government.

I blame the Media for their exclusion of factual reporting that makes liberals look like idiots, and for their inclusion of fabricated programing that makes conservatives look like idiots.

The Media is the lynchpin of power in this nation. They either Demonize or Glorify you, and the mindless masses follow accordingly.

Skipjack
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Post by Skipjack »

I don't care if people believe in Hari Krishna, as long as they don't want to take my money away from me forcibly.
Well, the christian churches here have the power to take money away from you. It is called church tax. Of course you can always leave the church. But then moving to annother country is not that big a deal anymore either...
The other way they are taking money away from you is by holding back education. Less education equals less know how, less know how means economic disadvantage.
and the spontaneous biogenesis of ID must be argued against by evolutionists.
It has been argued against many times. There is not need anymore to argue against it anymore. With the limited amount of time available in school for teaching REAL stuff, it is pointless to teach something that is absolutely wrong.

Of course everything is always the fault of the socialists. EVERYTHING.
You guys are hillarious!

Meanwhile the rest of the civilized world laughes about your ID nonsense. It makes you all look dumber than you are.

Diogenes
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Post by Diogenes »

Skipjack wrote:
I don't care if people believe in Hari Krishna, as long as they don't want to take my money away from me forcibly.
Well, the christian churches here have the power to take money away from you. It is called church tax. Of course you can always leave the church. But then moving to annother country is not that big a deal anymore either...
The other way they are taking money away from you is by holding back education. Less education equals less know how, less know how means economic disadvantage.

They are still doing that? I would have thought an enlightened Europe would have put a stop to that long ago.

Skipjack wrote:
and the spontaneous biogenesis of ID must be argued against by evolutionists.
It has been argued against many times. There is not need anymore to argue against it anymore. With the limited amount of time available in school for teaching REAL stuff, it is pointless to teach something that is absolutely wrong.

Of course everything is always the fault of the socialists. EVERYTHING.
You guys are hillarious!

Meanwhile the rest of the civilized world laughes about your ID nonsense. It makes you all look dumber than you are.

Some of our people believe in silly things that don't hurt anyone else and probably not even themselves, and Other people believe in silly things that have dire consequences for themselves and others, and we are the ones who look dumb ?

As to the "rest of the civilized world" I assume you mean Europe? India has it's own collection of silly beliefs, as does China and Japan. I guess Australia could be considered the "rest of the civilized world" other than Europe.

It's funny that Europe has more tolerance and indulgence for Islamic beliefs than it does for some goofy beliefs associated with Christianity.

Having silly beliefs associated with some of your population is a bit like showing up in public with an autistic child. When the Autistic Child starts acting out, the children all notice and point, while the adults understandingly try to ignore him and tell their children "Shh... it's not nice to point."

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

The Two most obvious and most serious missteps Paul Bremer made in Iraq were the announcement that No member of the Bath Party would be allowed to keep their Government jobs, and that the entire Iraqi Army would be disbanded.
I dunno. I believe actually winning required a couple of years of losing in order to get the population some experience with the jihadis. Not that it was part of the plan.

We are going through the same deal now in America with the Democrats. Shiny promises. Ugly reality.

It will inoculate us for a few decades against a repeat.

And yeah. disbanding the Army was rough. But it was a rotten institution.

The deal is: a brilliant military can turn its mistakes into an advantage.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

Skipjack
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Post by Skipjack »

Some of our people believe in silly things that don't hurt anyone else and probably not even themselves
Not directly, but one could argue that they indirectly hurt you and them.
India has it's own collection of silly beliefs, as does China and Japan.
All true, but to what extent do they want these believes to interfer with science education?
I honestly dont know that. I should have probably said "the western civlized world".
It's funny that Europe has more tolerance and indulgence for Islamic beliefs than it does for some goofy beliefs associated with Christianity.
Well, so far(!) they are not trying to force their silly believes on our children, by having them tought in science class!

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

Meanwhile the rest of the civilized world laughes about your ID nonsense. It makes you all look dumber than you are.
They should keep laughing.

The ID folks are a small and relatively powerless minority.

But OK you have no idea how hilarious the Church of AGW is to us Americans. It makes you Euros look as dumb as you actually are.

Deal is: I believe there is enough Euro brain power to have started the debunking in Europe. Why was the main attack concentrated in America? At least up until the release of the CRU data. And even then it was American blogs who were in the lead trumpeting the news. I had a post up within a few hours of the news. Got a LOT of traffic from that one.

ID has cost Americans nothing (a pittance if anything); you Euros are paying billions in carbon taxes. That is about as dumb as it gets. And the PC relative to Islam? That is even dumber. Those guys will slit your throats if they get a chance. Or you will wind up with another of your continent wide civil wars.

So laugh away.
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MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

All true, but to what extent do they want these believes to interfer with science education?
The interference is minimal. A very few school districts out of the 100,000 or more school districts in America. And even in those places it didn't last.
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MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

Let me also mention that none of what was revealed in the CRU data dump came as a surprise to those who were paying attention. What we now know had been openly conjectured for several years.

For me the release was only confirmation.
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Skipjack
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Post by Skipjack »

It makes you Euros look as dumb as you actually are.
Mhm, nice.
I will remember that for future discussion. The gloves are off now.

Skipjack
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Post by Skipjack »

That is about as dumb as it gets. And the PC relative to Islam? That is even dumber. Those guys will slit your throats if they get a chance. Or you will wind up with another of your continent wide civil wars.
True, but we have to thank your kind who imposed the fracking PC on us ever since WW2 for that!
We are not allowed to say anything against the islamisation, because then emmediately your kind, particularily yours Msimon, will climb on the barricades and will cry "oh my god, it is Hitler all over again!"
So you are actually responsible for that shit and what will happen once what you predict here goes off, will be your responsibility. I just hope that I will live long enough to see you guys pay for what you have done to us here! Because all that shit is so going to backfire at you!
Last edited by Skipjack on Fri Dec 25, 2009 6:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

Skipjack wrote:
It makes you Euros look as dumb as you actually are.
Mhm, nice.
I will remember that for future discussion. The gloves are off now.
Dude. There are maybe a million ID believers in America.

There are roughly 240 million AGW believers in Europe and the number is not declining very fast if at all. (last I heard the % was in the range of 60).

In America the AGW belief is at around 130 million and dropping like a stone. (below 50% and falling fast).

There are bigger delusions to worry about than ID. And how is that AGW nonsense helping your science education? It ain't science.

Yeah. It is easy to see the sawdust in our eyes. How about the bridge timbers in yours?

Fire away. Honest discussion is a full contact sport.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

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