Did Roosevelt die of Cancer?

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Diogenes
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Did Roosevelt die of Cancer?

Post by Diogenes »

http://www.slate.com/id/2236504/

If Lomazow and Fettman are right, Republican Thomas E. Dewey or a different Democrat should have been elected president in 1944. In that case, Harry S. Truman, FDR's vice president, would almost certainly not have been commander-in-chief from 1945 to 1952. The Cold War and subsequent American history might have taken a very different path.
I read about a month ago, that Truman refused to give Chiang Kai-shek troop transport aircraft, which he intended to use to attack and destroy Mao Tse Tung during Mao's long march.

Had a more anti-communist President been in power, we might never have had a Communist china, a Korean War, or a Vietnam war. Millions of people wouldn't have died, and millions more wouldn't have had to suffer through the misery caused by Mao.

People think i'm mean, but Democrats have had an almost unbelievably catastrophic effect on humanity when they get into power.



In any case, it's an interesting article.

TallDave
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Post by TallDave »

You have to weep when you imagine what might have been had the Communist disease never existed, or been confined to Russia. World GDP might be twice was it is today, and the general state of human technology might be 20 years further along.

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Post by MSimon »

TallDave wrote:You have to weep when you imagine what might have been had the Communist disease never existed, or been confined to Russia. World GDP might be twice was it is today, and the general state of human technology might be 20 years further along.
The disease continues on.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

Luzr
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Post by Luzr »

TallDave wrote:You have to weep when you imagine what might have been had the Communist disease never existed, or been confined to Russia.
All these ifs... If Germans would not had been lead by psychopat, they could have easily confined Russia (with the help of West).

clonan
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Post by clonan »

TallDave wrote:You have to weep when you imagine what might have been had the Communist disease never existed, or been confined to Russia. World GDP might be twice was it is today, and the general state of human technology might be 20 years further along.
One wonders what the state of Nuclear, computers, encryption, and rocketry would be without the threat of the communists coming over the hill...

All these technologies, which are so fundamental to todays tech, were financed heavily and advanced quickly BECAUSE of communist Russia / China. Without that threat I could still see us with 1960 era tech...

Diogenes
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Post by Diogenes »

clonan wrote:
TallDave wrote:You have to weep when you imagine what might have been had the Communist disease never existed, or been confined to Russia. World GDP might be twice was it is today, and the general state of human technology might be 20 years further along.
One wonders what the state of Nuclear, computers, encryption, and rocketry would be without the threat of the communists coming over the hill...

All these technologies, which are so fundamental to todays tech, were financed heavily and advanced quickly BECAUSE of communist Russia / China. Without that threat I could still see us with 1960 era tech...

And what would be the harm in it ? So technology would move slower without a war. Sometimes I think it moves too fast.

The advent of cameras everywhere recording everything you do, and the very near future of "Terminator" style robotic killing machines all coupled with the march of statism give me the shivers just thinking about it.

Consider this. Without World War II (enabled indirectly by Democrat Woodrow Wilson) would anyone ever have built an atomic bomb ? And subsequently Hydrogen Bombs? and Intercontinental ballistic missiles?


War is good for tech ? Yes it is, but I think i'd rather have the alternative. Peace and a more slowly evolving technology.

clonan
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Post by clonan »

Consider this. Without World War II (enabled indirectly by Democrat Woodrow Wilson)
And directly enabled by all three republican presidents after him by refusing to interact with the rest of the world...

War is good for tech ? Yes it is, but I think i'd rather have the alternative. Peace and a more slowly evolving technology.
Look at what I was responding to...Communism reduced the world GDP...

Generally I agree with you. Peace and slower development is better than all out war.

However it has been the rapid advance of technology that has kept our economy strong. Only with new technology can we hope to keep the GDP growing fast enough to beat population growth.

Malthus predicted a disaster because population grows exponentially while food production grows linearly. Only three things prevent this disaster...

1. Disease
2. War
3. Advancement


Disease generally just kills people while reducing production and should be avoided. War reduces population directly AND indirectly (bullets and sending all the men several thousand miles away) while also helping to stimulate #3.

Historically, communism has one and only one advantage over capitalism. It is almost never profitable for private industry to do basic research. A centrally controlled economy can VERY quickly do the basic research that leads to the revolutionary advances rather than simply evolutionary changes. Adam Smith noted this in the Wealth of Nations. As he pointed out, artificial direction will generally reduce over all efficiency but can achieve specific goals quickly. Capitalism may or may not develop a solution but any solution it does develop will happen slowly but be very stable. The issue with communism and research is that they tend to run out of money too quickly to use the discoveries.

You can see this in the US. Every single major advance in technology in the last 80 years was the direct result of the State financing the basic research. From a societal point of view it makes a huge amount of sense to finance basic research....from a CEO perspective it is usually the fastest way into unemployment. The output of basic research can't be patented and once the principle is know (or used in a product) it is very easy to figure out.

This is why I support a mix of Capitalism and socialism. Both types of economy fail miserably by themselves but succeed when mixed.

In the end, my ramble is just to point out that Peace and prosperity often can not coexist for long. Without a good war (hot or cold) every now and then your economy will stagnate and Malthus will be proven right.

Diogenes
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Post by Diogenes »

clonan wrote:
Consider this. Without World War II (enabled indirectly by Democrat Woodrow Wilson)
And directly enabled by all three republican presidents after him by refusing to interact with the rest of the world...
I allege that Woodrow Wilson is at fault for not minding his own business in World War I.

You allege that Republican Presidents were at fault because they DID mind their own buisness in the aftermath of World War I.

Are you saying they should have meddled in Europe's affairs to undo the damage caused by Wilson's meddling ? And because they didn't They are to blame ?


clonan wrote:
War is good for tech ? Yes it is, but I think i'd rather have the alternative. Peace and a more slowly evolving technology.
Look at what I was responding to...Communism reduced the world GDP...

Generally I agree with you. Peace and slower development is better than all out war.

However it has been the rapid advance of technology that has kept our economy strong. Only with new technology can we hope to keep the GDP growing fast enough to beat population growth.

Malthus predicted a disaster because population grows exponentially while food production grows linearly. Only three things prevent this disaster...

1. Disease
2. War
3. Advancement


Disease generally just kills people while reducing production and should be avoided. War reduces population directly AND indirectly (bullets and sending all the men several thousand miles away) while also helping to stimulate #3.

Historically, communism has one and only one advantage over capitalism. It is almost never profitable for private industry to do basic research. A centrally controlled economy can VERY quickly do the basic research that leads to the revolutionary advances rather than simply evolutionary changes. Adam Smith noted this in the Wealth of Nations. As he pointed out, artificial direction will generally reduce over all efficiency but can achieve specific goals quickly. Capitalism may or may not develop a solution but any solution it does develop will happen slowly but be very stable. The issue with communism and research is that they tend to run out of money too quickly to use the discoveries.

You can see this in the US. Every single major advance in technology in the last 80 years was the direct result of the State financing the basic research. From a societal point of view it makes a huge amount of sense to finance basic research....from a CEO perspective it is usually the fastest way into unemployment. The output of basic research can't be patented and once the principle is know (or used in a product) it is very easy to figure out.

This is why I support a mix of Capitalism and socialism. Both types of economy fail miserably by themselves but succeed when mixed.

In the end, my ramble is just to point out that Peace and prosperity often can not coexist for long. Without a good war (hot or cold) every now and then your economy will stagnate and Malthus will be proven right.

I think Capitalism needs to be regulated, but I cannot conceive of socialism being successful at anything beyond enriching and empowering the advocates of socialism.

Socialism IS faster at some things. Killing and impoverishing come to mind. I really don't think socialism does research better than capitalism. If it did, I suspect most technology development would be done by governments. That is certainly not the case here in the USA.

clonan
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Post by clonan »

Diogenes wrote: I allege that Woodrow Wilson is at fault for not minding his own business in World War I.

You allege that Republican Presidents were at fault because they DID mind their own business in the aftermath of World War I.

Are you saying they should have meddled in Europe's affairs to undo the damage caused by Wilson's meddling ? And because they didn't They are to blame ?
Actually, I allege that a League of Nations as conceived by Wilson would have greatly reduced the severity of WWII. But because the US did not participate it was led by countries that had daily reminders of the war. Had the US been there to lead the League of Nations we would not be as likely to be as harsh to Germany and would be less concerned about standing up to Hitler (or the like) when he came to power. By refusing to participate the Repubs made sure we had no influence on the world stage.

Diogenes wrote:
I think Capitalism needs to be regulated, but I cannot conceive of socialism being successful at anything beyond enriching and empowering the advocates of socialism.

Socialism IS faster at some things. Killing and impoverishing come to mind. I really don't think socialism does research better than capitalism. If it did, I suspect most technology development would be done by governments. That is certainly not the case here in the USA.
Actually, essentially all the BASIC research for every major advance was financed by the government. Polywell is an EXCELLENT example. It is a concept with a huge upside. However the only funding EMC2 seems to get is Navy.

Centrally planned economies (which is different than socialism) is exceptional at accomplishing specific, relatively short term goals...including Rocket development or Manhattan projects or even killing people...Centrally planned economies have the issue of not having the long term resources since they aren't dynamic enough. Capitalism suffers from permanent indecision which can be just as detrimental to advancement.

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Post by MSimon »

This is why I support a mix of Capitalism and socialism. Both types of economy fail miserably by themselves but succeed when mixed.
The socialism should be strictly limited to basic research, infrastructure, and war.

But there is also a moral hazard problem. ClimateGate being a prime example.

=====

Since WW2 American foreign policy has been to engage the world. Quiet hot spots. Station American troops where invited to prevent recurrences. It has worked pretty well.

The world currently needs a policeman. Better us than the Russians or Chinese. The Euros are neither interested in the job nor constitutionally capable of handling it.

Anyway that is what we learned from WW1 & 2.

BTW we inherited the policeman job from the Brits.

=====
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Post by MSimon »

But because the US did not participate it was led by countries that had daily reminders of the war. Had the US been there to lead the League of Nations we would not be as likely to be as harsh to Germany and would be less concerned about standing up to Hitler (or the like) when he came to power.
If you follow post WW1 diplomacy you will find that the Euros were intent on punishing Germany. They screwed Wilson on the diplomacy front. There was effectively no way for the US to lead the League of Nations.

It took another war to sort it all out.
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Post by D Tibbets »

I don't usually participate in the political rants, but this is getting ridiculous. Keep in mind that Lincoln was a Republican and was President throughout the Civil War, which killed more US men than all other US wars combined (I think). So, he was obviously a monstrous president.

I'll let Truman's record stand for itself. But, I will admit that I'm very glad that Mc Arthur was never president. My mostly ignorant impression is that he might have been a truly catastrophic president. While I think Eisenhower was a fairly good president for his time, he started our involvement in Vietnam, and Kennedy escalated as opposed to walking away. How you distribute the blame between Eisenhower and Kennedy is dependant on your bias.
Also, don't forget that Bush Sr. lead the first gulf war, his lack of enthusiasm for finishing the job lead (in retrospect) to all sorts of problems. And finally, don't forget Bush Jr. He started the war in Iraq based on lies. And, what should have been a war of annihilation against Al Qaeda was mismanaged and became a war of attrition against Afghanistan, and flawed nation building.

Dan Tibbets
To error is human... and I'm very human.

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Post by MSimon »

Are you saying they should have meddled in Europe's affairs to undo the damage caused by Wilson's meddling ? And because they didn't They are to blame ?
Had the Euros been amenable it would have been good for the US to get involved. And yes. The withdrawal from the world was a big error.

Proof of that is that since the USA began peacekeeping in the world the world has become a more peaceful place overall.
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Post by MSimon »

And finally, don't forget Bush Jr. He started the war in Iraq based on lies.
Well no. He was misinformed on some points. He was correct on others - Saddam was a troublemaker. Having a troublemaker at the heart of the world's economy is a bad idea.

And if Bush was lying there are a lot of others in on it including the Brits and French who were under similar impression. Remember the war was fought in chem-bio suits. Not something you want to do unless you take the threat seriously.

=====
"Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction ... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real..." - Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003 |

Source "I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force -- if necessary -- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security." - Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002 |

Source "One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line." - President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998 |

Source "If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program." - President Bill Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998 |

Source "We must stop Saddam from ever again jeopardizing the stability and security of his neighbors with weapons of mass destruction." - Madeline Albright, Feb 1, 1998 |

Source "He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983." - Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998 | Source "[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs." Letter to President Clinton. - (D) Senators Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, others, Oct. 9, 1998 |

Source "Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process." - Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998 |

Source "Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies." - Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999 |

Source "We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandate of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and th! e means of delivering them." - Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002 |

Source "We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country." - Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002 |

Source "Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power." - Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002 |

Source "We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction." - Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002 |

Source "The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..." - Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002 |

Source "There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years ... We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction." - Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002 |

Source "In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members ... It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons." - Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002 |

Source "We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction." - Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec. 8, 2002 |
It is sad to see revisionism so prevalent here.

A reference to the AUMF for Iraq would clear up a few more points.

http://www.c-span.org/resources/pdf/hjres114.pdf

Compare it to the AUMF against the Barbary Pirates.

http://ace.mu.nu/archives/237952.php

====

The War may have been ill advised. It may have been fought badly. The post war situation may have been handled poorly. But to argue that it was a Bush trick is nuttso. Congress and the Ds were looking for a scapegoat when things started going south. Bush was it.

We used to have Democrats who studied war and world power - the WW2 generation - who effectively passed from power in 1968. Gone from the scene completely by the end of the Clinton term.

Now it seems only the Rs are interested.

Vietnam is now lost in the mists of history and misinformation. The war was won. Had the Ds and the country been interested in doing our usual of stationing troops and keeping the peace the whole history of that area might have turned out some better.
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MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

D Tibbets wrote:I don't usually participate in the political rants, but this is getting ridiculous. Keep in mind that Lincoln was a Republican and was President throughout the Civil War, which killed more US men than all other US wars combined (I think). So, he was obviously a monstrous president.

I'll let Truman's record stand for itself. But, I will admit that I'm very glad that Mc Arthur was never president. My mostly ignorant impression is that he might have been a truly catastrophic president. While I think Eisenhower was a fairly good president for his time, he started our involvement in Vietnam, and Kennedy escalated as opposed to walking away. How you distribute the blame between Eisenhower and Kennedy is dependant on your bias.
Also, don't forget that Bush Sr. lead the first gulf war, his lack of enthusiasm for finishing the job lead (in retrospect) to all sorts of problems. And finally, don't forget Bush Jr. He started the war in Iraq based on lies. And, what should have been a war of annihilation against Al Qaeda was mismanaged and became a war of attrition against Afghanistan, and flawed nation building.

Dan Tibbets
I'm pretty much with you up to the current situation. We did a real good job of nation building in Iraq. Five years. It is some kind of world record.

Afghanistan is tougher.

The reality is that if we don't get our nation building act together in Afghanistan we are perilously close to having a terrorist regime in Pakistan. And the nation building needs to be done in Pakistan as well. Not though some kind of pact. But bribery will work.

And I do not support the Afghan war because I think it is such a good idea. It isn't. It is in fact a terrible idea. The area has been grief for outsiders for 3,000 years. I support it because I see bigger troubles down the road if the mission is not properly completed.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

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