Lest We Forget

[chrismb]

The Sudetenland was always German until the Germans were scared and litterally beaten from their homes. That of course made them angry.

Don't be daft! It was Czech, largely settled [very successfully] and developed by Germans under the encouraging and watchful gaze of the Moravian monarchs during the 15th and 16th centuries. {The Germans really made that area work well!! Right up until mid 20C. If you want an ungovernable part of Europe industrialised, send the Germans in.}. There were similar areas in North Slovakia (the Spiš region - most towns there had German names until WW2, my wife is from Poprad, 'captial' of the tatras, formerly Deutschendorf - translates as "German Villlage"!) and Hungary.

My Grandmother in law still lives in the 'Sudetenland' house that they bought from the Germans who built it and were obliged to leave it due to the bungling post-WW2 arrangements of the Western powers. That history is STILL directly present today - so mind what you say here to people who might actually be directly offended by what you say.

Unfortunately, your ignorance is much as Chamberlain's; "why should we be concerned about a country so far away, of which we know so little...Peace in our time....". Peace off...

[Skipjack]

Yes, inhabited by Germans.
I do personally know people that owned property there too as well as in other areas that used to be inhabited by mostly Germans until the end of WW2. Then they had to flee or were murdered.

[Skipjack]

Its really funny how it all went. First there were the Germans building up everything, then they (not jus the Czecks) came in and looted and ruined everything. Now they are back in the EU and demand that the Germans (Netto payers) pay for restoring everything back to where it was.
I would have never let them join, but that is politically incorrect to think and say.

The only good thing is that this wont go like that for very much longer. One more generation and the Germans will be history, died out, replaced by others (moslty by turks). The ones that follow wont give a darn, I am sure. I might still be alive to see the turmoil when the whole systems collapses. Fun, fun.
Of course that too is politically incorrect to think and say.

[IntLibber]

They were taught from birth that as long as things were done by the book, a thing was legal. The epitome of German statism. And they did so. By the book, everything.

Meaning that from when Hitler took dominance through to the end of WW2, all those 10 year olds were the hardened experienced members of this state?

The German people democratically voted to give up their vote for a period of time so that Hitler could get their ruined country on its feet. Before Hitler, people had to race home with their daily wages in a wheel barrow to buy a loaf of bread before the price went up again. He fixed that and made the country one of the most industrialised and advanced in the world, within just a few years. Why would anyone not believe him after that? Your view of history in hindsight unhinges you from imagining what the German people were suffering before Hitler.

You are mistaken in assuming my judgement of the belief in statism by the German population began with Hitler. It most certainly did not, it started in the 19th century under Bismarck.

And so what if they democratically voted to give up their vote? This is where that pesky term "inalienable rights" come in. You cannot by a minority vote (Hitler, while elected by pluralities much like Bill Clinton was in 1992, never won a majority vote) decide to strip the majority of its rights, nor can anything but a supermajority vote to amend a constitution, at least not here.

That it was so EASY for Hitler to do what he did legally, by the book, in Germany is further condemnation of the German people's false trust in statism that they would permit a plurality to enact such sweeping change.

Most of the industrialized world was in the shithouse in the 30's, you know, not just Germany. My own grandfather went from stock broker in 1929 to being a hunting guide by 1934, and put most of his familys food on the table from hunting, fishing, and gardening, working as a barber in the off season, and he was one of the lucky ones.

Today, the people have a similarly false trust in statism. Assuming the cure for a debt-caused financial crisis is best cured with more debt sort of defines the word 'insane'. Assuming the government, which caused the whole mess by requiring banks lend not on credit scores but on race and zip code while at the same time not regulating the resulting toxic mortgage based securities, is the best organization to fix what is broken with more of the same failed economic ideas, demonstrates that we've succumbed to the same sort of statist insanity as the Germans suffered under that ENABLED a person like Hitler to rise to power, on the same sort of campaign platform of "hope" "change" and messiah-like cult of personality as our own President exudes.

[chrismb]

First there were the Germans building up everything, then they (not jus the Czecks) came in and looted and ruined everything. Now they are back in the EU and demand that the Germans (Netto payers) pay for restoring everything back to where it was.

Your lack of real knowledge on this topic and your faith in "victor's history" is astounding.

Czechoslovakia gave up to Germany after the Western powers effectively told them to do so. As a result, there was no conflict there and there was no destruction. That is why you will find renaissance and early German architecture very well preserved there - almost uniquely. Nothing was looted or destroyed. The reason for the current state is not because of destruction, but because of decay. Whereas the Germans kept up standards, once the socialists moved in and no-one really 'owned' anything anymore so they gave up looking after the place.

It would be untrue to say that there was no violence against any Sudeten Germans, and it would also be untrue to suggest that no Germans were evicted without any sort of recompence, but the opposite is equally untrue. The issues were nothing fundamentally to do with either the German people there, or the Czechs. It was to do with the political powers and how those powers provided perverse incentives for the populations to behave in certain ways. It is always due to the political powers, and in the case of CS it is mostly down to the ignorance of the West.

[chrismb]

You are mistaken in assuming my judgement of the belief in statism by the German population began with Hitler. It most certainly did not, it started in the 19th century under Bismarck.

But Bismark's German empire collapsed, and the Weimar republic took over in 1919. it was the Weimar republic and its political structures that was Hitler's cradle and sustenance. He wouldn't've got a look in under the Hohenzollern!

Gee.... is this down to history-as-taugh-in-the-US, eh!?

[IntLibber]

You are mistaken in assuming my judgement of the belief in statism by the German population began with Hitler. It most certainly did not, it started in the 19th century under Bismarck.

But Bismark's German empire collapsed, and the Weimar republic took over in 1919. it was the Weimar republic and its political structures that was Hitler's cradle and sustenance. He wouldn't've got a look in under the Hohenzollern!

Gee.... is this down to history-as-taugh-in-the-US, eh!?

I'm quite aware of German history. That the german people continued on after the empire collapsed, with the Weimar republic, etc etc, the National Weapons Law and other laws that clearly demonstrated the German people had full faith in the state and none in the individual, just proves my point, that they would continue to make the same statist mistakes time after time.

Many people try to challenge the libertarian model with the attack that "theres never been a libertarian society" to prove our model works, which is false, medieval Iceland lasted 200 years in a libertarian state, as did the early US for a few decades, but one has to revers the challenge, and say "look at how statism continues to be tried and continues to fail time and time again, leaving economies looted and bankrupt, and tens of millions of people dead".

When statism doesnt cause total collapse it is frequently saved by extraneous conditions that had nothing to do with statism, usually a technological advance or advances, discovery of new sources of natural resources, etc.

If polywell or another game changing energy breakthrough doesn't come to fruition and bail our country out of its energy dependency and tax and spend addictions, I put chances at 95% that things are going to be rather dire within a decade. Of course, the statists will blame things on the lack of more regulation, and will regulate things til the US is a totalitarian state, where productive individuals are tax slaves to the state, and retired people will be judged for longevity fitness by their genes and lifestyles as to whether they get 'universal health care' or public choice euthanasia.

[Skipjack]

Your lack of real knowledge on this topic and your faith in "victor's history" is astounding.

Dude, my grandmother was one of the people that lost everything!

[chrismb]

Your lack of real knowledge on this topic and your faith in "victor's history" is astounding.

Dude, my grandmother was one of the people that lost everything!

To whom. Who was it that you are saying did the looting and ruining?

I'm not following you.... You've blamed the Germans and the Czechs, but why would those who either built or live there do such things? I'm blaming the Western powers and the socialists.

[Skipjack]

The Germans build everything there, the ones that took over from them did the looting and the evictions, etc.
In Slovenia it was the partisans that killed my grandmothers friends and looted and destroyed everything. She got the last train that made it out of Marburg. Everyone who stayed after her, was never to be seen again. Lots of her friends. I am sure they are in a massgrave somewhere (that will probably be attributed to the Germans, because we all know the Germans were responsible for all the evil in the world, right?).
There were simillar stories concerning the Sudetendeutschen.
I know from stories from my grandfather how they had to flee the Sudetenland. Evicted, some beaten with iron chains until they would leave.

[chrismb]

The Germans build everything there, the ones that took over from them did the looting and the evictions, etc.
In Slovenia it was the partisans that killed my grandmothers friends and looted and destroyed everything. She got the last train that made it out of Marburg. Everyone who stayed after her, was never to be seen again. Lots of her friends. I am sure they are in a massgrave somewhere (that will probably be attributed to the Germans, because we all know the Germans were responsible for all the evil in the world, right?).
There were simillar stories concerning the Sudetendeutschen.
I know from stories from my grandfather how they had to flee the Sudetenland. Evicted, some beaten with iron chains until they would leave.

But Yugoslavia was attacked by the Germans and Italians. Quite a different story for Czechoslovakia that submitted. In point of fact, Slovakia itself separated from Czech when this happened and, technically, Slovakia was an independent state. I no little on Slovenia's history, I offer no contest on what you might have to say about that. Might well be like comparing USA and Mexican history, similar location but whether there is any comparison I do not know....

I do agree that in the Sudetenland there was certainly occasions of what you describe. I heard in one local town the new mayor was a bully (by even the local's standards) and just marched up to the biggest German's house in the town with an axe and a couple of heavies and told them just to walk out - without a thing. Sure, this went on - all under the auspices and direction of the Western allies. This is "victor's justice". The innocent always suffer in war. That's why war is so bad. There has never been a war where more military people have lost their lives than civilians. Going to war means you're gonna kill innocent civilians. Maybe not intentionally, but it is an inevitability. Always wrong.

[Skipjack]

But Yugoslavia was attacked by the Germans and Italians.

Hmm, in WW2 the Croatians were on the side of Germany.
In WW1 there was no Yugoslavia yet and the attack was a direct result of (indirect) agressions from Serbia. These were deliberately instigated by the russians (read up on panslavism) and the English who had plans for a war against Germany as early as 1909 (in a secret negotiation with the Italians, they promised several areas to Italy in case they joined them against the Germans).
These documents have been opened to the public meanwhile and you can read up on that.
Now of course it was still a dumb idea to go start a war with the Serbians, but it was not "all the Germans fault".