Yeah, not problems here. I think that 20 years are enough for a patent. Note, I do own have patents myself. I do actually think that some patents are given away to easily (e.g. if the invention is actually not new).Second I took your comment on patenting as a criticism of the system. Evidently I was mistaken.
Healthcare & rationing
People with fibromyalgia willingly harmed themselves for years with massive quantities of opiates according to doctors and the drug police.But I dont see why people should get a free ride that willingly harm themselves.
Further research showed that the folks that had been so well persecuted were actually in pain.
Now what if you are mistaken about willing harm? What if it is medicine for something the doctors haven't figured out yet? Then you would be doing harm. I know this is radical but here goes, "why not let people make their own choices?" Oh. I forgot. The government is forcing you to wield the fasces of power because they are making you pay for other people's choices.
What if every one paid their own way? Then you would have no incentive to have the government scrutinize other people's lives for crimes against the treasury.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.
What I meant:Skipjack wrote:You said:But maybe I totally missunderstood that post of yours. If so, I am sorry. Sometimes the language barrier still bites me in the arse ;)You are giving up future rewards for a better today. Kind of brutal on the kids.
What you are doing is getting lower costs today in exchange for few new products in 20 years.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.
What about the private insurance companies that are being much, much more restrictive at the moment? All I am saying is to have a little less restrictions than them, but to not go overboard completely and have no restrictions at all. No restrictions whatsoever is something you can ONLY have in a government system like the one here in Austria (we have no restrictions at all here). I personally dont think that this is right though, because it costs us a lot of money. So I was actually proposing a middle ground between the extreme restrictions that the private insurance companies give in the US and the complete lack of restrictions we have here. I would have assumed that you would agree with me on that, but I guess that this is not the case.Oh. I forgot. The government is forcing you to wield the fasces of power because they are making you pay for other people's choices.
If you want a system without restrictions at all, you would have to move here.
If the research funds come out of "excess profits" only available in America and America decides to quit paying....Skipjack wrote:Why would there be fewer new products in 20 years? I dont understand that. Sorry.What you are doing is getting lower costs today in exchange for few new products in 20 years.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.
OK, as I said, prices for pharmaceuticals were high here too and were actually driven higher by restrictions to the free market that we used to have (and that dont exist in the US for all I know). These restrictions were only recently removed when generics were allowed here (I am pretty sure that they are allowed in a free market like the US as well).
So why would the step of allowing generics that are also allowed in the US give us an advantage over the US. That does not make sense. They earn just as well here as they do there. That was my point. I had originally assumed that pharmaceuticals were that much more expensive in the US. They are actually not. They were almost as expensive here, until we allowed generics. Then the free market came into play and prices went down.
So why would the step of allowing generics that are also allowed in the US give us an advantage over the US. That does not make sense. They earn just as well here as they do there. That was my point. I had originally assumed that pharmaceuticals were that much more expensive in the US. They are actually not. They were almost as expensive here, until we allowed generics. Then the free market came into play and prices went down.
Ah. I see the misunderstanding. I was unaware that generics were unavailable in Canada until recently.Skipjack wrote:OK, as I said, prices for pharmaceuticals were high here too and were actually driven higher by restrictions to the free market that we used to have (and that dont exist in the US for all I know). These restrictions were only recently removed when generics were allowed here (I am pretty sure that they are allowed in a free market like the US as well).
So why would the step of allowing generics that are also allowed in the US give us an advantage over the US. That does not make sense. They earn just as well here as they do there. That was my point. I had originally assumed that pharmaceuticals were that much more expensive in the US. They are actually not. They were almost as expensive here, until we allowed generics. Then the free market came into play and prices went down.
So do you now pay American prices or has your government negotiated a "deal".
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.
Again, bullshit. We do way more procedures here than in any socialized country in Europe, esp. at end of life. And they don't have monopsony power, or fiat power.What about the private insurance companies that are being much, much more restrictive at the moment?
An insurance company is bound by both law and their customers' ability to go elsewhere. A government is bound only by politicians' whims.
Ha. I very very very much doubt that. Every socialized system has guidelines. And they all give the guidelines a nudge now and then to contain costs.(we have no restrictions at all here).
Last edited by TallDave on Thu Sep 10, 2009 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I dont live in Canada.
Sorry, I thought I had made that clear often on multiple occasions. Canadas system is much inferior to ours. In Austria, where I live, which is not Australia and definitely not Canada. Anyway in Austria generics had not been allowed until recently. Because of this prices for medication had been climbing, since there was no free market and no competition. Now that generics are allowed, prices are stabalizing or even going down again. That is the story. I brought this up to get the argument that Austria (and I am only speaking for Austria here, because this is a system I am qualified to evaluate as a user) is a free rider. It is not.
The pharmaceutical companies were making very good profit here because of the lack of competition from generics. Now the market has more freedom and generics are allowed. That brought the prices down.
I think they are still making good profit here from those meds that dont have generics yet, though. The prices are regulated for prescription medication. You bring a prescription and you get the medication for a standard, so called prescription fee of a few Euros. The actual price of the medication is paid for by the insurance company in return for the prescription. This is only for prescribed medication though and the prices are largely dictated by the pharmaceutical companies, anyway. Thats what made the prices so high.
If you dont have a prescription and just want to pick up some aspirin (which does not require a prescription for some reason), you can do so and pay the full price out of your own pocket. Aspirin is actually a lot more expensive here than it is in the US.
Just to clarify this.
Sorry, I thought I had made that clear often on multiple occasions. Canadas system is much inferior to ours. In Austria, where I live, which is not Australia and definitely not Canada. Anyway in Austria generics had not been allowed until recently. Because of this prices for medication had been climbing, since there was no free market and no competition. Now that generics are allowed, prices are stabalizing or even going down again. That is the story. I brought this up to get the argument that Austria (and I am only speaking for Austria here, because this is a system I am qualified to evaluate as a user) is a free rider. It is not.
The pharmaceutical companies were making very good profit here because of the lack of competition from generics. Now the market has more freedom and generics are allowed. That brought the prices down.
I think they are still making good profit here from those meds that dont have generics yet, though. The prices are regulated for prescription medication. You bring a prescription and you get the medication for a standard, so called prescription fee of a few Euros. The actual price of the medication is paid for by the insurance company in return for the prescription. This is only for prescribed medication though and the prices are largely dictated by the pharmaceutical companies, anyway. Thats what made the prices so high.
If you dont have a prescription and just want to pick up some aspirin (which does not require a prescription for some reason), you can do so and pay the full price out of your own pocket. Aspirin is actually a lot more expensive here than it is in the US.
Just to clarify this.
For frick's sake. Do you not understand the concept of monopsony purchasing?The pharmaceutical companies were making very good profit here because of the lack of competition from generics. Now the market has more freedom and generics are allowed. That brought the prices down. .. I brought this up to get the argument that Austria (and I am only speaking for Austria here, because this is a system I am qualified to evaluate as a user) is a free rider. It is not.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopsony
Great, you have generics now. I don't know how the hell you didn't have them before unless your country is run by complete morons, but ok, great. Some drugs don't have generic equivalents.In economics, a monopsony (from Ancient Greek μόνος (monos) "single" + ὀψωνία (opsōnia) "purchase") is a market form in which only one buyer faces many sellers. It is an example of imperfect competition, similar to a monopoly, in which only one seller faces many buyers. As the only purchaser of a good or service, the "monopsonist" may dictate terms to its suppliers in the same manner that a monopolist controls the market for its buyers
You ARE free riders. The pharmas don't dictate your prices, your government sets them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_rider_problem
In economics, collective bargaining, psychology, and political science, "free riders" are those who consume more than their fair share of a public resource, or shoulder less than a fair share of the costs of its production
TallDave, you are claiming that insurance companies will not deny insurance to individuals in the US for, e.g. preexisting conditions?Again, bullshit. We do way more procedures here than in any socialized country, esp. at end of life. And they don't have monopsony power, or fiat power
You are claiming that they will not deny you coverage, because of sometimes minor preexisting conditions, even if they were unknown to the insured person?
You claim that people do not loose their health insurance when they change jobs and that they dont have to be affraid of never getting insurance again because they have a condition, or simply because they are getting old?
You have never seen questions about heart conditions and nikotine abuse on forms for health insurance? Because they will option to deny you insurance in these cases, or only give you insurance for severe(!) additional fees.
Do you say that all that is not true? I have been lied to by friends that were denied insurance because of that?
In return here in Austria, everyone is health insured. Preexisting condition? Does not matter! Drug addict? Does not matter! Obese? Does not matter. Smoker? Does not matter!
That is what I am talking about.
And again, I dont know of any cases, ever and that with me growing up in a medical doctor household and with a sister that is now a medical doctor, where any life saving procedure was ever denied to anyone out of fiscal concerns. The only procedures that are not paid for by our health insurance here are cosmetic procedures and those can be paid for in extreme cases. Heck I know a girl that had a sex change paid for by the government because she found a shrink that said she needed it!
It varies from state to state, but by and large the most they can do is make you wait a few months.TallDave, you are claiming that insurance companies will not deny insurance to individuals in the US for, e.g. preexisting conditions?
Yes, they generally result in higher premiums. As they should.You have never seen questions about heart conditions and nikotine abuse on forms for health insurance?
Amazingly, fire insurance is also more expensive or hard to get if your house is already on fire. Why do you suppose that is?or only give you insurance for severe(!) additional fees.
It's also hard to get life insuance at a reasonable price when you're dying of cancer. Why?
It's also hard to place a bet on last week's soccer games, for the same reason.
Last edited by TallDave on Thu Sep 10, 2009 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I know what Monopsonies are and I know what a free rider is TallDave.
I do however not agree on us being free riders. Because medication here is not cheaper than it is in the US. It only got cheaper when we allowed generics. That is a fact.
I dont care what it is like elsewhere, in Canada, Russia, or Timbuctu. I am only talking about Austria here.
I do however not agree on us being free riders. Because medication here is not cheaper than it is in the US. It only got cheaper when we allowed generics. That is a fact.
I dont care what it is like elsewhere, in Canada, Russia, or Timbuctu. I am only talking about Austria here.
Again: some medications don't have generic equivalents. You pay less for those as well, because your government negotiates prices.Because medication here is not cheaper than it is in the US. It only got cheaper when we allowed generics. That is a fact
You are free riders. You don't pay your fair share of production costs. This may be painful to you, but it is a fact.