Healthcare & rationing

TallDave · Post by **TallDave** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 11:33 pm

A MD from Austria attended a surgery for colon cancer in the US.
The doctor there was said to be brilliant and the best of his trait. Well, he performed the surgery perfectly, but left the lymph nodes in. This means a 80% or so risk that the cancer will come back. When the Austrian doctor asked why he did not remove them, the answer was: The patient had not paid for it.

LOL that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. And you believed this story?

Hello? Any Austrian doctor would loose his license for this.

Oh dear God the ignorance. Over here that would also mean a massive lawsuit against the hospital and most likely criminal charges.

Skipjack · Post by **Skipjack** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 11:34 pm

Lets be fair also, we have a population of over 300 million, Austria is little over 8 million, I'm thinking your system may have problems dealing with that large of population. US isn't for everyone, If you want it easy, stay in Austria, there is a risk to living here, we have a plan to save for at least a years worth of unemployment.

Yeah, so say your son gets a heart attack at age 33 (because of simply bad luck as I was told) and can therefore not afford health insurance anymore. You are going to tell him just that?

I also want to remind you that the same system works in Germany where there are 82 million people. So the number of inhabitants cant be a factor here (sure 82 is not 300, but the US has much more land in return and anyway I cant see how these numbers would have any effect).

BTW does your system allow malpractice suits?

Yes of course it does. However there are almost no lawsuits. Why? Because people dont have to sue someone to prevent themselves from filing bankrupthy after prolonged illness. In the US it is of course different. I mean these people have the choice: Sue someone (no matter whether justified or not), or file bankrupthy. Heck, I know what my choice would be.
Oh and yeah, taking someone to court is way to easy in the US...

TallDave · Post by **TallDave** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 11:34 pm

Skipjack wrote:
This has no connection to the state of medical care. Many individuals diets affect this as well as stress related, which is most likely higher in the US due to the fact that US citizens take far fewer vacations and work more hours than most European countries.
Diets are roughly the same here as they are in the US. We do have slightly less obese people, but we have been getting fatter too. Oddly enough life expectancy has still increased here.

Life expectancy at birth does not correlate to quality of medical care. Cancer survival rates do.

Skipjack · Post by **Skipjack** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 11:35 pm

Uhm Talldave, this story is a fact. It was told to me by said surgeon.
The US doctor had informed the patient about the options and the cost for each treatment. The patient decided for the cheaper option and signed of on it. That was then executed.

Skipjack · Post by **Skipjack** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 11:36 pm

Life expectancy at birth does not correlate to quality of medical care. Cancer survival rates do.

Says who?

TallDave · Post by **TallDave** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 11:37 pm

Yeah, so say your son gets a heart attack at age 33 (because of simply bad luck as I was told) and can therefore not afford health insurance anymore. You are going to tell him just that?

Then you pay it back over time. No big deal.

Skipjack · Post by **Skipjack** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 11:38 pm

Yeah, sure have loan and then another loan and then another loan without any chance of ever paying it back. We all know how well that went for the US, do we?

TallDave · Post by **TallDave** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 11:38 pm

Skipjack wrote:Uhm Talldave, this story is a fact. It was told to me by said surgeon.
The US doctor had informed the patient about the options and the cost for each treatment. The patient decided for the cheaper option and signed of on it. That was then executed.

I call bullshit. No one chooses an 80% risk of cancer returning.

TallDave · Post by **TallDave** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 11:38 pm

Skipjack wrote:
Life expectancy at birth does not correlate to quality of medical care. Cancer survival rates do.
Says who?

Actuaries.

TallDave · Post by **TallDave** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 11:39 pm

Skipjack wrote:Yeah, sure have loan and then another loan and then another loan without any chance of ever paying it back. We all know how well that went for the US, do we?

We seem to be much wealthier than Europe. Thanks for asking.

Skipjack · Post by **Skipjack** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 11:39 pm

Actuaries?

Skipjack · Post by **Skipjack** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 11:41 pm

We seem to be much wealthies than Europe. Thanks for asking.

Germany is back to an economic growth of 2.5% by now, after it was also hit by a worldwide economic crisis that was caused by the failed politics of the US in the last 8 years.
The US is still far, far away from such numbers at the moment.

TallDave · Post by **TallDave** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 11:43 pm

Sigh.

Did you know when the WHO releases IM/LE information, they specifically state because those statistics are recorded differently in different countries they should not be considered comparable?

A baby born under a certain weight in most countries in Europe is not considered a live birth, but is in the U.S. Because many of them die at 0 years, that alone can account for 1 year of LE difference.

Besides that glaring problem, it's well-established that dietary habits play a large role in life expectancy. That's why despite the claims of Soros-funded groups like Commonwealth that socialist health systems are great due to their LE, there is no actual research supporting such a link.

TallDave · Post by **TallDave** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 11:45 pm

Skipjack wrote:
We seem to be much wealthies than Europe. Thanks for asking.
Germany is back to an economic growth of 2.5% by now, after it was also hit by a worldwide economic crisis that was caused by the failed politics of the US in the last 8 years.
The US is still far, far away from such numbers at the moment.

Yeah, it's our fault all those mortgages in Poland were denominated in Swiss currency and they suddenly couldn't pay them back. It must be something Bush did.

Well, your views are good for a laugh anyways.

But hey, at 2.5% you'll catch up to us in about 50 years. See ya then! Well, assuming we don't start growing faster again like we usually do.

Skipjack · Post by **Skipjack** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 11:50 pm

Well you say my statistics are invalid, but yours are?
As I mentioned before, you failed to read, or failed to understand the entire article that you quoted earlier. In this article it too states that the cancer- survival numbers can not be compared so easily. I even gave an example for one reason why the US might have had an unfair advantage in this statistic.
Yet you dismiss my statistics and only count yours. You are equally dismissing anything I say. The funny thing is that I am not even biased. I really am not. I can even choose where I want to live. I want to have the best system and I can say that the US system is not the best when it comes to healthcare. Neither is ours, but at the moment healthcare in the US is inferior. The same money buys you less. That is the only thing that counts for me. How much do I get for my money. In the US I get less unless I pay a fortune for it. Then I might get more, I say might, because I have yet to hear of anything thats better in the US from any medical doctor that I know and I do know a lot.