New Fed Law? Nuclear Energy = Clean Energy

[MSimon]

Simon,

Turbine lifetimes were 28 yrs old 30 yrs ago.

Subsides? tax breaks, incentives, what ever you call it, they all get help, why single out one sector of the energy market and not another?

We've been over this before, you hold it against solar & wind that they need help, and you count the money. But you wont acknowledge the same pitfalls of other sources. SO be it.

30 yrs of this crap, thats how nothing gets done. And thats what pisses me off to no end. 30 yrs wasted because of political wrangling & Vanity.

Roger,

You are unaware of what is going on in the current wind market.

http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/200 ... reens.html

http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/200 ... -jobs.html

http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/200 ... -scam.html

I am a mechanical engineer and quite knowledgeable about wind power and the reliability problems. They are many!

Wind power has a longer history in the EU, but the experience has been similar. Wind power has been subsidized in the EU for longer than it has here in the states. The results have been similar. Power from wind turbines is more expensive that the more traditional sources (coal, gas, hydroelectric, nuclear and oil). The only way that it viable is with government subsidies.

In the EU, turbines cannot be installed without monitoring system to watch their health. This is due to the many failures that have occurred. They cannot operate without insurance and the insurance is unavailable without monitoring. Here in the states, very few turbines are installed with monitoring.

Why? Simple. Turbines here are normally owned by investor groups that exist primarily to market the tax credits. The total cost of the turbine can be recouped in 3-5 years with these credits. The investor groups contract with the turbine manufacturers to install and operate the turbines for the 5 year warrantee period. By the time that the warrantee has expired, the turbines are paid for and any further running time is pure gravy. When they fail, shut them down and there is no loss.

Except, of course, to the tax payers that support this scam.

BTW I do agree that wind and solar need some money. And that money should be going in to research to bring the costs down not in to production boondoggles. It should be going into research into the storage of electrical energy.

What I fear is a repeat of what happened in the Carter era. Alternative Energy was over promoted and then spent the next 20+ years being mostly ignored because "every one knows" it doesn't work.

Let me add that Spain tried the Green Jobs thing and for every green job gained they lost 2+ other jobs. Fair enough. Then what you want is to put the money into research so green jobs become a net economic addition. So let me see 10 five person research teams will cost the economy a net of 50 jobs. Not bad. With prospects of future gain.

However, 10,000 solar installers means a net 10,000 job loss. Now you are talking a measurable problem. And what happens (as happened in Spain) when the government decides to pull the subsidies? The market collapses and a lot of people are out of work and cell production capacity is way too high for real demand.

And the energy (because of its higher cost and the reqmt for backup) is near a dead loss to the economy unless fuel costs go way up. BTW this is not quite true for solar as it can shave the peaks where air-conditioning is in heavy use. But wind? You never know when you will get it or how much.

But at the present time our policies are based on fantasy and Soviet Economics. i.e. it ain't gonna work. And you know - if the chances are good it ain't gonna work it is research. And you keep it to the smallest scale practical.

[MSimon]

Fair enough. But wind and solar are always demanding operational subsidies (i.e. once in place, they have to keep being paid to operate), .

I buy solar panels, put them on my roof, I pay 30k. I do nothing else, I get a check for selling wholesale electricity back to the utility, about 1200 per month.

Where is the operational subsidy?

I buy a wind turbine, install it, again.....

Where is the operational subsidy?

Its called starting a business, a small electrical generating business.

No one is buying wind turbines or solar cells at cost and installing them to make money selling electricity. You can't.

Take solar. You make electricity for 30 cents a KWh and sell it to the power company at retail - say 20 cents a Kwh (a high cost venue). Where is your profit?

So let me see. There are federal, state, and sometimes local subsidies. That starts bringing your personal cost down. But it does not bring the economic costs down. The "economy" is still paying 30 cents a Kwh for 2 cents a Kwh power. There may be situations where this makes sense - demand metered electricity with lots of air conditioning, places where you need power but you don't have power lines near by. But those are not near so numerous as the situations where it is "economical" with a subsidy.